Ep. 9 | Mastering business longevity - George Heisel

We sit down with George Heisel, President of ExpoCredit, a specialty finance company that purchases over a billion dollars annually in accounts receivable and accounts payable. George brings insights from his extensive career, including his founding of Doctor Diabetic Supply, Inc., which became the largest independent national distributor of diabetic testing supplies before being sold in 2011. His role as an active investor in various sectors highlights the importance of diverse portfolio management. Emphasizing the values of kindness, respect, and humility, George underscores how these principles are crucial for success in both business and life. George and Jack dive into maintaining a strong family foundation and its positive impact on business achievements. The two talk about personal choice to abstain from alcohol and how doing so has contributed to their longevity and overall well-being in both personal and professional realms.

George Heisel
Expo Credit 

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Host: Jack Moran
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Hello everybody, and welcome to episode nine of Shaking Hands. I'm your host, Jack Moran. You can find me on Instagram at Blue Collar Kid that is Blue Collar KEHD. Today on the podcast we have George Heisel, the owner of ExpoCredit how we did it at George. We're doing great, Jack. Thanks for having me today. So we talked a little bit before this. This is just a podcast to hopefully inspire people who are looking to make the switch into entrepreneurship, to do so, by hearing the experiences of successful entrepreneurs like yourself. So I figured we just start out with like, you know, where are you cut out right now? Like as an entrepreneur, like, what's your current situation? What ventures are you working on? Oh, I have two ventures I'm working on today. One is called Expo Credit. we buy receivables. So smaller companies that are selling to bigger companies don't want to wait 60 days. You pay will buy it on that same day that's issued. And, we'll collect it in 60 days. And we take a small fee at 1.5%, anywhere from 1 to 1.5%, each month. So typically we advance 80%. They get 80% from we collect it, we take our fee out and we give the rest back to them. And it's a cycle that allows them to grow their business. And that's your core business, sir. And what kind of companies are you doing that for? world mostly it's international. So we're doing a lot in Mexico. Mexico's growing a lot. That's funny for being an upstate blue collar kid. we definitely got we went a long way from there, but I think that one of the things that I think it'd be interesting for your audience is the fact that you follow your passions. So I had an obsession with South America when I was young. And so when you have that kind of dream and goals, you just get attracted to it. And there's no better city in America connected to South America than Miami. So, I was just an investor after selling my first company, and, I was lending money to Expo credit. They would put it out. I they were lend I was lending at 12%. They would put it out at 18% and they would keep the 6% difference. And it was unfortunate I was the world's worst investor after selling my company. So I think as the mindset of an entrepreneur, you're not the nest. You're not set up to be a great investor, and you need mentors, and you need people that can help you through that. Because generally, to be an entrepreneur, you have to be super optimistic. So, when you look at investment, you should not be optimistic. You be you should be super pessimistic and make sure that you're able to get your investment back. So, expo credit, took too much risk. And so each time that they had problems, I had to put more money in. And eventually me and another close friend of mine ended up buying out the last partner. And, so this guy from upstate New York, bit of redneck, ended up with this international factoring business. and we do not only do we do Mexico, but we're also in Colombia, Ecuador. We've done stuff in Brazil. We're looking at Guyana in the future. so that's my major, time investment. And then I have a second company called Bill shark. that I am a co-founder, first investor. And, they do back office, technology for banks and large, companies like into it and Alber and our big client now is JPMorgan, which is rolling out as we speak. so it's a very exciting time for this company, but I think that if I was going to talk to your audience again about that is is staying power, it took eight years to get a large bank contract implemented. Eight years, but we still had to be salaries. We still had to keep the lights on. And so there was a lot of grit to that. You know, once again, when people start businesses and they hear about these overnight successes, I would say an overnight success starts in ten years and probably ends in 20 years. And, and it takes a lot of grit and a lot of, focus. I have a very close friend, Bobby Castro, who, took $1,500 and turned it into a $700 million empire. And the two things that he would tell his your audience would be be humble and be focused. And so every day when I wake up, I think about Bobby and I say, you know, how can I be more focused? And so at Expo Credit, we really focus on blue chip paper. So before we had waits for the phone to ring today we we generate calls and focus on, the best paper. So you know, we're focusing on Walmart Schlumberger, Halliburton, above the Budweiser holding company companies like that. So the quality of the paper that you purchase just makes the whole thing less risky, because as entrepreneurs wake up in the morning, they have to about they have to think about risk every day, and they have to have a backup plan on every single thing that they do. And it's it's an obsession. And you have to be super focused. So how do you stay optimistic through an adversity, like when it seems like everything's caving in on you? Like how do you keep yourself? How do you keep that staying power, as you say? Well, you know, I had some recent challenges. in 2022, we had, we were defrauded for a large sum of money. But the fact that the company was so resilient and was still making a profit and was still generating, cash flow, we were able to push through that, you know, and it it was depressing. I had employees crying that this happened. You just know that you're going to get through it. And, you know, I'm a lot older than you, so I, I've been through it many times where you think you're not going to make it. In my first company and after diabetic, there was many days when I was like, you know, am I going to make it? And you have to look at your bank account. You got to see how much cash you have in the bank and then figure out, you know, am I going to get through the day? And if you have that, it's a good day. You know, and I think that people need to look at that. But I've always had a backup backup plan. Like I always had a little bit of savings behind me in case I had to reach into it to help, you know, cover payroll or buy the next piece of advertisment. I think that one, you know, it's a great day if you can get out of bed. Right. And you have to you have to understand your business. And if you understand your business, you have to see what's going well and you have to lean into it. You know, you can, you know, as they say, you can't cry over spilled milk. Yeah. You said before, like how one of the main two focuses is being humble. But why is that so important? I know that's something that I've had to really focus on because as an entrepreneur, like you kind of do have to have an ego, but also you have to really suppress it. And I say, like early in your career, you're trying to like carve your, you know, place out in this world. So you're trying to get that affirmation. So you're pretending to be a hothead when you're really not. But that can kind of work against you. Like, why do you think being humble so important and how do you deal? Well, I have a theory, that there's a two by four right around the corner about to hit you in the face, you know, and as you look at your business, you know, the environmental challenges that are going on, you don't know what's next. You don't know what next regulation's going to come up. So you have to be a you have to look at each day like, hey, I'm going to treat everyone with respect because I might have to go back to that person at some point and ask a favor, you know? But I think that you have to be a giver, like you have to give to your employees every day. I think in a positive energy, if you're not positive, then, you know, how can you expect your employees to be positive because there is a two by four around the corner? If it's a government agency that shows up at your door, if it's a bank line that all of a sudden, for one reason or another, they don't want to do business with you anymore. And then what do you do? What is your backup plan? You know, maybe, you know, you told off a banker because his rates were too high and he was arrogant and you told them off. And the following week you had to go back to that guy and say, hey, listen, you know, I'm no longer with Bank United. You know, I want to go to Woodforest, for example, you know, and but I, you know, when I was talking to ten banks, I treated every single one of them with respect because you don't know when you're going to go back, or maybe you're growing a lot and they need to participate. And if you treat everyone with respect, they want to do business with you. People want to do business with people that respect them. And there's nothing worse than being the smartest person in the room, because if you're the smartest person in the room, then you're in the wrong room. And I'm not the original folder of that foot. I really believe in that. You know, you want to surround yourself with talented people, but talent comes in so many different facets. One guy is really good with people, another one's really good with numbers, and you need all those people. my current company is run by women. I have a president. That's a woman. She is phenomenal. I would match her up to anyone. Anyone. And then the CEO. I was also a woman who has unbelievable people skills. She can get the employees to go in any direction, and they do it with a smile on their face. And that's a talent. What's your skills, do you think? Like what is your value add to a company? Like what is the thing that you focus on? most when you're contributing to your own company? You know, I think that I didn't ever feel really talented. So I went to every conversation with humility because I always assume the person in the room smarter than me. you know, I had my academic challenges. I did graduate, but, you know, I like to brag that I graduated sixth in my class at Babson College, and that was six from the bottom. So, I just got very I know I barely got through. there were other issues there. I party too much, and, I had a lot of fun. I stopped buying books junior year and stuff like that was probably not helping my grades, but I did pick out the two smartest kids in the school. They, Wallace and Mark Cabrera, and, stayed in touch with them because I knew that they were going places, you know? And I knew that if I ever needed help, I could go to them. And then, coincidentally, Dave Wallace went into the diabetic testing supply business before I did. And Bill, three phenomenal companies, and I was very fortunate that I kept that relationship. You know, because we are peers, you may not say we were mentors, but we encouraged each other. We talked a lot. You know, those were fast growing businesses where you're hiring hundreds of employees and to be able to go and talk to, an intelligent, smart person who I've always treated with respect. Same with Mark Cabrera, who was a huge banker for Oppenheimer. Those relationships came back to me. So I think was really important. Jack, is that you keep in touch with people that you respect. How do you develop relationships, like how do you earn that respect with someone that you may have just met and you're trying to develop a relationship with? What do you think is the foundation of a good relationship? Oh, I think if you asked me what my talent is like, I can probably tell you today, though, I had the talent the whole time. I'd never really, codified it. But building trust with people. And I think that the best way to build trust with people is actually care. I mean, I like people, I can't be around people for ten hours a day because of the energy that I try to give in the relationship. But 1 or 2 hours in the morning, like this moment with you, Jack, I'm trying to give you my energy, and I think that you'll remember that. I think that you'll remember that. Hey, this guy gave me his energy. He gave me something. And you take the time to learn about the person you know. Do they like dogs? Do they like, you know, kids? Do they? So what are their big dreams? And then you start talking about whatever their big dreams are, and then you become a good storyteller. And I think people really enjoy storytelling. Again, I didn't know that that label has been recently labeled as something, but I was always telling funny stories because I pay attention. I pay attention to the first, so I include them in that story, and people love that they enjoy it. And so I think that in all relationships, one thing I would also tell entrepreneurs, when you join an organization and you do networking, plan to be there for a year before you actually tell people what you're looking for or how they can help you, because everyone has like a defense mechanism. And the only way that they're going to let you break that down is over time, you know, and they see that you're not out. Just be yourself, that you're going to help yourself and you're going to help them, and you're going to guys, you're going to work together in an organization, be a volunteer, you know? And in Ypo, I initially joined it. And, it stands for a young president's organization in the beginning, I didn't even know that there was value. And then one day I got a phone call from them. They gave and they said, hey, we have this thing called quorum. It was like a small business group that you could talk about your personal life, you could talk about your business, you talk about your family. And it really, in some ways saved my marriage because I was working, you know, 70 hours a week. And, I was, you know, having the ups and downs with modes people have in their relationships and things that I didn't think were normal. they said, oh, you know, I told them that, you know, I was struggling with this and like, welcome was we're all struggling at times. The most important business decision any person ever makes is who they marry. because you, you. That's the only person that can take 50% of your assets for a lot for men and women, you know. So you need to make sure that you're right, marrying the person that's going to help you achieve and share your dream. Right. I'm a today I'm very good relationship with my wife. I don't know, when I was, first starting out, I don't think she understood what it took to run a business because she came from a different background. But, you know, the one thing she always did was she did trust me. Like she did trust me when I walked out that door that I would make the right decisions. I would never give up. And today she will say that I'm unbreakable. And we've gone through lots of things. We lost a $45 million line of credit. So what do you do? You got to go back to your friends that you've had accumulate over many years and say, hey, you know, would you like to help? And I would, I would say nine out of ten people that I said, yes, that was older, I was mature, they saw how I could run a business. And and they said yes. And I will always remember those people. And so you talked about before, I think it's an interesting segue about learning where, losing 50% of your assets. I think a big risk that, you know, people, people feel this fear of like to say, blindly getting fucked over when they start a business. How do you protect yourself, like to prevent that from happening? Or is it even is it inevitable? Well, you're definitely going to get fucked once or twice if you own your own business. But you know, are you resilient and do you have a backup plan? So if you have a backup plan, which typically is source of money, is all businesses run out of money, right? So I like to say that if you there's, you know, four ways to become rich. The first one is to, inherit it, which we're not here to I guess, talk about. And that wasn't me that was in you. the second one is just to save your money. You know, the richest man in Babylon saved 10% of his income every month or ever. Whenever he was paid, I would say probably do 20% of that. But he is accumulating some money. A third way of becoming riches. Become a professional doctor, engineer, you know, professor and, you know, get paid a lot and save a lot. Right? And then the fourth one is starting your own business. But all four have. One thing in common is you gotta go back to the second one, which is you got to save your money to own your own business. You have to be able to manage money. And you know, if that's just make sure you always get three vendors when you buy something, you know, and you don't necessarily go with the lowest price. But when you get three vendors, you're going to find out all the different nuances of making a purchase. If it's furniture or it's, you know, media equipment, you're going to check three vendors, you're going to talk to salespeople, and you're going to learn something because you're going to go in with a little curiosity. As an entrepreneur, you have to be curious. If not, you know, you're closing your your the door to thing to to learning things that you're going to need in the future. So to go back to getting fucked, you know, first of all, you can't be a lawyer because that's all they think about is getting fucked. And that's why they're not great entrepreneurs. I'd like to share a a legal hack or at least prepare, your audience about lawyers. They're the worst. They are the opposite of you. They're there to make money. So your first question I would ask all lawyers is what car did you drive? And if they're driving a fancy car, do not hire them. And you might have to sift through a hundred of them, but find out what car they're they're driving. The second one is we typically take the second referral of a lawyer, and you shouldn't do that. Oh, my friend knows this lawyer. Talk to him. And a lot of them have really good personalities. In the beginning, they're always going to tell you what you want to hear. Oh, you got a good case. Don't worry about this. I'm going to, you know, make it very painless for you. And it starts. And three months later, you're in for, you know, depending on what it is, if it's a big business dispute, you're in for 300,000. If it's a dog bite, you're in for 40,000 and you're like, what's going on? I like, well, we need to settle. You know, three months ago you were telling me that, you know, I had a great case. And so the entrepreneur has to prepare himself to manage in a world that's like, a parallel universe because they don't follow the same rules. So one thing is you're going to go into battle and you don't even know how good your lawyer is going to be in the first battle. And most of you will not have a good lawyer. The second is they're arbitrarily going to tell you a dollar amount. So, you know, I'm going to charge you $400 an hour in Miami right now, it's probably 800 to 1000. That doesn't matter as much as how many hours they're going to bill you. So another hack is you want to a partner not an associate. You want a partner and you want that partner so busy that takes them about 24 hours to call you back when you call them. Okay? Because if they call you right back, then you know that they're they don't have a lot of hours to bill. And so you're going to get a big bill at the end of the month. Another thing that they do is they let the bills accumulate. So three months into it, you get this big $40,000 bill. But if you got the first bill in the first month, then sometimes they will send the first one, but then they'll hold on. You really have to micromanage your your lawyer. And another hack, with lawyers is don't let them allow anyone else to work on your case. That's where you get the big bills. And now. So if you again, if you're in a business dispute, you know, all of a sudden associate is on your case too. And they're always like, well, you know, the associates half the cost of what I charge. Yeah, but they're going to charge you for ten hours where a busy partner is going to charge you for an hour. So only allow that. The other thing is, which I am again, I'm I'm a sinner here, and I'm trying to reform myself is take the time to read the contract they put in front of you. And one thing you can write on it, you don't have to accept what they said. The retainer letter, they call it. For example, they shouldn't charge interest. And the other thing is they're charging you anywhere from 400 to 600 to 1000, and they're charging you for research. It's ridiculous. Like absolutely ridiculous. So we could spend a lot of time talking about this. those are a couple of things that each person, when they have to, you know, you will. And very likely, if you grow a decent sized business at some point you'll need a lawyer. With that said, don't let them judge you. Be that kind of person that likes people, wants to grow your business, wants to get out there and, meet people and, and and build unbelievable relationships. The other thing is, there's only two things that you should be do love your family, take care of your family and think and live your business. Okay? No hobbies. I've done million dollar deals and never done it on a golf course. I've never done it in a bar. If you really believe in what you're doing and you want to own your own business, you need to focus on your business and your family. That's it. And put your family first. But then everything else about the business, all of your friendships should go away, and all your friendship should be inside your business. You should have great relationships with your employees. You should have great relationship with your clients. You should have great relationships with your bankers. And you know you can be respectful to your lawyer too. If you want. So what is like your what is one thing that you wish that you had done when you were first starting out in entrepreneurship? It would be good to restart your business or do it all over again. Well, I think there's two questions there. one is what I do. If I started from scratch today and then back at Doctor Diabetic when I sold it, I didn't have a board of advisors or I didn't have a board of directors today. That's what I have, a board of directors, my chairman, who, everyone's like, why do you have a chairman? You're a majority shareholder. Why aren't you the chairman? Because he's the best guy to do that job. He sold this company for a half$1 billion. He knows exactly what he's doing. He's brilliant. And I'm very fortunate that he's giving me his time to be my chairman. but back at Doctor Diabetic, I didn't have a board of advisor. I didn't have a, for directors. And that was a big mistake, because I think if I had sold my business with a board, I would have gotten more money. I mean, I a great, but I think I would have been better with a board. I did have a board of advisors in Ypo, but they weren't active in my business seeing the day to day of my business. and it sounds sophisticated and and it wasn't because I was being arrogant or, I don't think at that time, I just was so focused that I was like, oh, if I bring a board in that I have to spend time with them and get them up to speed, and what do I pay? and all that kind of stuff. And, looking back, it was a mistake not doing that. So once your company is going, you should have mentors that have done this before. You should have people that are better at different areas of your business than you are typically. Maybe someone's already sold in that sector. so that was a big mistake. Looking back. So obviously one of the biggest side pieces, and I think this is something that gets overlooked a lot is like how important sales is within a business. What do you think the key is to driving sales within an organization? Systems holding people accountable, leading by example. So doctor diabetic I was the first employee. And you're not allowed to go call Medicare patients. So I would run TV commercials and then I would get phone calls and they would call me first. And then because I was only a one man show, I had, caller ID, I was able to see the other calls that come in, even though I was talking to the first one that calls. And, I would listen to the, the patient and, I would figure out what clicked, what they, what was important to them. So, for example, if I would say, where are you getting your diabetic test is supplies today? And they would say, I get them at the pharmacy boom. That's all I needed to hear. So I wrote it out. So I wrote sales scripts and other experiences. I think it's okay. People sometimes they're like, well, you know, I can't really work for someone. I need to run my own business. I work for other people. And I learned about sales scripts. And so I wrote sales scripts, and then we would fine tune them with as I hired people, we would fine tune them as we go, and then we would have QA. But as an entrepreneur, you have to stay on top of your salespeople, and it's really important that the message of your product gets out there through the voice of your sales person. And the only way you're going to do that is having sales scripts. I again, didn't graduate top of my class. but I didn't actually have an ability with people. And so fortunately for me, I think sales is the most important thing of a business. And if the CEO or the founder isn't willing to sell, they probably shouldn't be in the business, because there's a lot of really smart people that come with really great products. And those products are, you know, in the dustbin of history because they didn't get out and sell it. You know, I have a very close, very wealthy friend that graduated from Georgia Tech and started a, technology company. And if you ask him his story, you will tell you how he would sleep. He would arrive in Orlando, he would sleep in his rental car in the back lot, because the timer of the car didn't start until after he drove off the lot. And so he couldn't afford, a hotel, and he could barely afford to rent the car, so he'd sleep in the back for six hours, and then he would drive off, and he knew how to get to all the conventions centers without paying tolls. That's how little money he had. And today he's probably a billionaire, and he is just an amazing human being. And, he did it from sheer grit. And, it was a and he was his own salesman, you know. So go back to sales. Sales for me is everything. because all companies need to grow. Because you don't know what the competitors are doing. And by growing, that means you're going to increase your resources. I think when you go back to starting your own business, you want to look at a business that has good margins. Now, I didn't know that when I started Doctor Diabetic. It was very anecdotal. What I learned, I'm one of my mentors who knew I wanted to go out on my own, said, hey, I'm renting to this guy that's not working very hard, and he's making a lot of money, and he's selling diabetic testing supplies. And so I said, well, let's go talk to him. And I was very energetic. I would talk to anyone. So I went and I talked to the guy and he was making a lot of money. This was not 2000 is making $300,000 a year. And he was working two hours a day, three hours a day, right Monday through Friday. So I decided, hey, I'm going to do that, but I'm going to really hard even work 70 hours a week and not pay myself anything. And, and I started generating money because it was a good margin business, so. Well, that was way basically me not knowing that I got into a good margin business. So if the margins are there and you're growing, it gives you resources, you know, to hire more people to advertise more. You can cover your assets with some good margins. Right? Exactly right. You know, my mentor would say because there was times why question of being in the diabetic testing supply was, oh, you know, I'd look outside and be like, oh, this is terrible. This is there's so many headaches, there's so many problems. And, and so, yeah, you could run a diner, too. You'll have the same headaches, same hours, and not make any money. Right? Yeah. I always say I'm not smart enough to run a company with low margins. Right. Exactly. There's a lot of errors, a lot of rooms. And the other thing is, like I would say, like numbers on my hands. That's awesome. You know, is when you, when you, I used to say that if you're growing, you can, like, make a lot more mistakes, right? Really important. And I know a guy that was, making a lot of money and he wasn't growing, and me and Dave Wallace blew by him, like, blew by him. I mean, we had 4000 patients. We had 10,000 and he had been in the business already a decade. Dave had been in business 3 or 4 years and had been in the business of probably two. And we blew by him. Then he woke up and he was like, the market changed, man. People are moving fast. People are a little more aggressive and, you know, growing their businesses and and sure enough, he started he had the resources. So he started growing. But he was definitely following us. So you said before in the beginning like to the answer the question, like to grow sales. You got to have systems and accountability. Like how do you manage people. That's something that's I, I found to be really difficult is to like influence people and get them to do things that you can see intuitively that are good things for them, but they may not necessarily see it. Well, I think you already have one gift is you're going to lead by example, right? So I think that that's super important. But then fair, firm and consistent and don't make exceptions like people think that I'm tough. Like they, they, they that people that don't know me think, oh you know, oh, you know, you terminated that guy and but it's never surprise. I mean, I remember I had this I once had to terminate someone. That was the surprise because the other investors wanted a change of personnel and they were surprised. And, you know, in some ways it really broke my heart because that that's not how I roll. So a progressive disciplinary program like where you set expectations doesn't mean that you, you're you're heartless. You know, there was a legitimate reason. You know, you give people warnings, but, you know, it progressively gets more strict. So someone's, you know, late they missed a meeting. You know, they get written up and they know that that's not acceptable. But I think that's really important is you don't have favorites like, oh, this guy pulled down this contract. And so he's been laid for six weeks and doesn't matter now. It doesn't matter. And sometimes you have to like as your company's growing, sometimes you have to let go of your a-fib that affects the cluster affects the culture in their, their, not setting the example that you want because you want systems in place. And so it's not robotic, but you limit people's, you know, a lot of people and startups, they get a lot to wear a lot of hats, but what you as you get bigger, you want people to be more specialized. So it's super important. So to answer your question though is progressive discipline. So there's no surprises. And it can be a morning. So whatever you think is fair you know and two things happen. One, they decide to change their behavior or two, they decide to leave the best termination is a resignation always. You know, as long as you're respectful, you know, you don't have to be rude. You don't have to be aggressive. And the other is don't procrastinate it. Don't let problems fester. No, you know, always confront whatever the problem is. And, you know, I tell people, I'm not here for the good news. I'm here for the bad news. Right? The good news? I don't really care. you know, and if you are you an optimist or a pessimist when you look at business, you know, are you, everything is blue sky or you know, you're more of the agony of defeat type person. I'm definitely an aggravated, iffy person. Even though I'm optimistic. I have a huge fear of failure, and that's why I cover a lot of bases, because I was like, oh, this could go wrong. That could go wrong, you know? And over time, they all went wrong at one point or another. You know, I had huge audits from Medicare, you know, because we got so big, we got on the radar. I had 26 people on the, the audit program, you know, but if you are not saving your money, you keep your margin that you wouldn't have been able to hire 26 people to, you know, answer every question that Medicare has. And and I want to kind of like, segue a little bit before we wrap up into just the personal side of you as an entrepreneur. What are the and I think we talked about this last time when we met was with Matt. you talked about like the main vices for an entrepreneur. Like, what are those main vices that kind of distract you from entrepreneurship? Well, ego is definitely one of the big ones. You start making a little bit of money and thinking that you're that you're better than you actually are, and then you have the ALS, which is leverage. You get too far into debt, ladies and liquor. Today it's liquor or marijuana or whatever, that distraction. And you not really drink, right? I think we talked about that. Yeah. I quit when I was 27. I mean, I'm from upstate New York. I'm Irish, you know, there was a lot of drinking involved in college. And, you know, at one point it was time to grow up. If your dreams are that big, it's not a big sacrifice. You know, if your dreams are that big, a lot of people don't get in trouble because they try to maintain a lifestyle that they don't deserve, you know? And that's leverage. You know, you, you know, I know a lot of people. They'll take their life savings, you know, maybe it's $200,000 to start their own business. They start making little money, and then they go out, buy a Mercedes or a BMW, and they start showing off their success. But then, you know, Medicare made cuts. You know, they they lower the reimbursement. So if you're not prepared for those moments and you have debt, for example, I never had debt on my business. It was only seasonal debt. today, you know, I don't have that on my house. You know, those are the kinds of things that prepare me for those rainy days. That car, they do car. I don't care how good you are. They come. And I think sometimes people think, oh, Mark Zuckerberg, for example. you know, he's one and, you know, he's like three out of 7 billion people in the world. And I think that there's a lot of just fundamental blocking and tackling for people like us. You know, that have common sense and want to build something and, and enjoy it. You know, you have to enjoy it too. If you're doing it for the money, they'll never work out, because the first time that you get a roadblock, you want to quit because you're not doing it for the right reasons. Was quitting drinking like imperative to you? Like, I talked to people about this a lot, and you know, I don't drink. and that was a big, you know, step for me to, to grow my business and get my business started. I wouldn't be where I am today if I, that continued partying and doing those things. And for me, it just kind of got mundane. Like, you know, I like the experience and I like the challenge. And it became easy to just, you know, get drunk and have fun. Whereas this is a much more gratifying, like challenge, that precedes on and just keeps on giving. But I talked to a lot of people that intuitively understand that they feel. They feel that they should stop and like that. It's holding them back. But then there's this kind of like cultural pressure to continue doing it. So what would like, you know, I said, it's better coming from you, someone who's had so much success and where you are today and living in a beautiful place like this. to kind of speak to, like how that hold you back and why it was, important for you to mix that from your life. Check that you're brave because most people don't like talking about that, because, you know, they think that you're judging them or you're you're you're not fun or something. I was a lot of fun, and I was 27 years old. And I would go out and, you know, it was cute when you were younger. But, you know, if you're an adult and you're planning to run your own business, you know, people want to know, be able to count on you. So I was working in the ambulance business. It is one of the hardest businesses in the world because there's all the worst things. Heavy labor unions, not the unions, are bad because I've had good experience with unions, government agencies, government contracting, insurances, malpractice, all of these things. And you're, you're when people dial 911, you better have an ambulance at their house, you know, and and you better no excuses. Right. That's dreamlike, stressful. And I watch people that were in my industry that drank and the stress got worse, didn't get better, you know? And so I remember being in San Diego and, I was sitting in a, like, bar restroom, and I was embarrassed because the mayor's chief of staff was in there, and I was in a bar, even though I was just eating food, I was just embarrassed because I wanted to set an example that they could count on me. Okay. The one reason the people have been willing to give me, like, right now, $90 million, is they trust me and they might not want to go out drinking with me because I don't drink right. And I might not be fun at night. But when they give me their money, they know their money is with someone that they could count on. You know, that's super important. You know, there's a great YouTube, the Huberman, Huberman labs, and he just walks. There's no physical benefit for alcohol. As a matter of fact, when you're not drinking, you produce more of the stress hormone. The. That's why people become alcoholics, because they start generate more and more of that stress. And when they're not drinking. So of course, then they go and they drink more. Right? You know, if you're 100% focused on your business, you don't have time to be drinking, you know, and there are people that do it. But now that I'm, a lot older and watching people, people that were more talented, me and we're slowly putting a little bit of poisoning in their system after, you know, say I was 27 for the last 30 years and they don't have the fire in the belly that I still have. You know, today I'm doing a podcast with you. How did that happen? It's because I'm open to the world. I'm not hung over. I'm not in a bad. Yeah. Like is it makes you moody, you know, not a lecture. Anyone? No one. You ask Jack, and you're brave for asking because most people don't want to talk about it, because they don't want to give it up. And if you'd asked me a day before I was 27, I would say, oh, that's a waste, and I can do it without that. And I did have a really strong worth ethic. You know, when I was in my teens, I was working sustainable. All right. You can get away with a lot when you're younger. You know, you can be hung over at work, whatever. But I was working two jobs. And, I mean, the other thing is, if you don't have a strong worth, either you can't have your own business. You know, you have to be, you know, you know, you set your own hours when you're in a business. That's a joke. You're working all the time, thinking about all the time. You're laying away in weight, laying awake in bed, and you're thinking about it. So, I would strongly tell your audience that, you know, that, that that's one sacrifice. Because owning your business, you have to make sacrifices. Yeah, that's you know, it's like I mean, it's so logical, right? But like, why do you think people will make the switch? I did there's some and they and like they say to me that they, you know I respect that you're doing it. It makes so much sense. But like, why are people making that logical switch? Because now looking back, like it makes no sense to me why I even participated in that. It was illogical. Yeah, well, I mean, you're part of the 1%, right? Anyone that owns their own business is less than 1%, you know? So you make that choice that that sacrifice so you can be fully focused in your, your enterprise of whatever that is because it does take all of you. And so this is a good question. And I always like to ask, how do you define success. Like what is success for you? Well, the one flying around the internet is, your parent, your kids want to hang out with you when you're all right. I think I have that, so I think I'm pretty successful. I think the wealthiest person I know that I personally know really well is Mike Pappas. Yeah. So 12 grandchildren, that's well, I mean that truly as well. now I know that people will say, well, you know, you already have some success. And so that's easy for you to say. But as you get older, you know, there's really nothing more important than your relationships. I started a group called Tag, which stands for Tiger Alumni Lunch Group, because I'm not a tiger anymore. Tiger 21. And, it's really just a long term commitment to friendships, you know, and people that have done well and, that I've met through that group and we bring in interesting speakers. But like a guy that I'm really close to, Gary Zelinger, he, I would see him two times a year, but because I started this lunch, I'm going to see him six times, you know, and, I, I've done some political fundraising and I went back to this group and said, hey, there's no pressure, but if you'd like to come to my house, you know, you're coming to this lunches, if you like to interact with the same people and you meet some of the politicians that we, we, we know, especially in Florida, I'm a big Florida guy. I think Florida is just an amazing state, amazing leadership. Our governor led us through an absolutely horrific time during Covid when we were lied to by our government. and he led the way. The most probably important election in the last 20 years was in 2018, when Governor Ron DeSantis beat Andrew Gillum. If Andrew Gillum was the governor, I think the country would still be closed down. You know, there are still some other great governors that led the way of opening, but none so great as Ron DeSantis. How much does politics play a piece in business? it depends on what industry you're in. I think that if I was going to give someone advice about starting a business today, if I was going to start over, you know, the the government is spending$6 trillion a year, 1.6 trillion that they don't even have. They're just printing. so, you know, as they say, you know, why do you write Rob banks just because that's where the money is. for the famous bank robber. the money is in government. So there's ways to provide a product to the government. so backing up on this, the if I was going to start over, I would start a sales company. They used to call manufacturing reps, and then I would go to a guy like you and say, hey, you have a phenomenal product. You're helping the environment I'd like to sell for you. And maybe I get a, you know, a small base. Probably not. I get a commission. I do my first sale. I'm not sure what the commission is, but instead of spending it myself, I hire an employee. And now there's two of us. Now I have a business, okay? And I picked your product because it's a great product. And, it's helping the environment because that's what I'm into at the time. That's what you're into. I was in health care, so helping diabetics was what I was it to right find something you're into that you can grow the business find a product. Everyone needs sales. So good advice. So, the government is, you know, you could take your environmental, your technologies and help the government also and do government contracting. They have bodies of water that need fixing. Now there's public courses. so there's those opportunities and they just have a lot of money. But what with all things is you have to have staying power because the business cycles, the longer they are, the more you have to have staying power. Right. So in your business it's 12 months, I think in my business now at Expo, credit is probably 18 months. You know. But once you get a client, you know, it's really good. bill shark, it took a decade. I mean, we did a contract with Goldman Sachs, then we did contract with Citibank. They fell apart. Nothing to do with us, but it allowed us to set us up to to work with JP Morgan. And, things are going really well. And those that that staying power is so important. So backing up though, it's always about sales in the end you have to find a demand for something, right. And once you have it, don't spend the money on yourself. Hire an employee. And then there's two of you, and now you're going to get double the sales, hopefully by making a sales script. Right. Let's go back to that sales group and share what's win, what wins and what does, and then collaborate with your employees. Employees love collaboration and you'll be you'll be surprised what you can learn from your employees. They're thinking about it too. And you know, I had 500 brains working for, Doctor Diabetic. And we engaged them and we had meetings, and I met with each one of them, and they talked to them. They're like, oh, you know, I see you in the office every day, you know, walk into the call center and, you know, inspires us because you used to do the same thing we did. And I said I did. expo credit. the business we're in is a very, very tough business. And, the reason we've been successful and continue to stay in business, I've been there like 11 years. It's going to be a 20 year overnight success is because it's so hard to get good clients, so hard to get that blue chip as like as a competitive or competitive. I think and there's an education piece to it, you know, you know, clients, you know, you get a big client and you're, you don't want to you know, you don't want to share your information with others. And also there's a trust element there. the other thing is, is when you're, running your own business, diversity, of client base is so important. If one of the things about in like investing or when you look at businesses typically, you know, I like to say that's an 8020. But the reality is it's probably one. And all the other clients are like, you know, window dressing. So if that, if that, if that business loses that one client, they're out. So a client, you know, they're doing, I don't know, $50 million of sales, but it's all with Walmart. And all of a sudden someone else shows up and Walmart has a better product and you're out, you know? So as soon as you get a really high quality client, you don't celebrate. You get the second one and the third one. You never celebrate that. You know, you worry about failing, you know, and those businesses and those people that are like that. So it's a weird personality. It's not for everyone, you know. But do you know, you know, I remember I would say that I was going to be rich and people were like, no, I've seen you in school. No, you're not, you're not. But that no one can steal your dreams. I don't care, you know, you can have an abusive parent. You can, you know, be in the worst conditions growing up. But if you have that dream inside you, you can manifest it. You really can. I'm a big believer in manifesting. So what does manifestation look like for you? Is it a practice or is it just like off farm shoot? You know, that is it? I think it's it's like a it's a basically it's a lifestyle like I okay, great. I didn't even remember this. You know, there was that secret that people that book called The Secret and that is misspelled, manifesting things. But let's not be, you know, spiritual just to be a goal setter. You know, you're a goal setter. Things are going to happen for you. You know, you fail, you get up, you set another goal, right? So coincidentally, I have an old friend in Brazil. I was live in Brazil. I had 3500 followers at the time. And, I had a picture of a house fountain in front of it. The circular driveway on my laptop. Back then they had, like, these old heavy laptops right. And I forgot about it. And, I mean, for years it was out there. Right. And then I was talking to my close friend because I stay in touch with all my friends like I try to. It's hard, but, you know, sending a birthday card or texting people, you know, I'd put effort into it, you know, when I'm home and I'm not working and my kids are a lot older now, so they're driving and they're independent. So I have more time. So I set out taxes on Father's Day and wish people Happy Father's Day right. do I need to do that today? You know, probably not. But I enjoy it because I like people. Anyway, I called him. He's starting his own business, another business in Brazil. And, he goes. Yeah. And I remember when you had that picture of the laptop of that, that house with the fountain in the middle circular driveway. You're living in that house. I'm like, you're right. actually. And I think it's actually the picture, in my Vanguard account. Like, you have to have a picture. Password protection. Right? And I forgot about that, too, because I really never go to the Vanguard. Then I saw I was like, oh, my God, you know, but, when I was like, in the beginning, when I graduated from Babson, I didn't know anything. I really I didn't know anything, right? I just had this big dream, and I wrote out three things that I wanted to be worth $65 million when I was four years old, I wanted, I wanted to be in Ypo, I wanted to be in Ypo, which I didn't really know what it was, but there was two people, in the, in, in, in my class, the parents were very rich and they were ypo. So I, I, you know, put that out there and, sure enough, I got an offer when I was 40 for $65 million for doc buy back the the big mistake that I made was though I needed to write down liquid. The deal fell apart. It wasn't worth it. I mean, I wanted to sell it, and I did really well. But, at the time, I should have wrote down liquid 65 billion. So if you guys are right about your your your goals, make sure you put liquid. and, you know, I wanted my own on my own business was the third thing, right? And, all three came true. It took 20 years, but it the, you know, they all came true. And I think it's really important for your audience and the people that, are following this podcast, that writing down your goals and then manifesting them. But then you make your life about that, you know, like, not in, like this whole thing. Oh, you know, you need a balanced life. You can have a balanced life. You can be a professor. Can't be really a lawyer because you work by the hour. You know, it's hard to to have a balanced life. so, you know, if you cut out alcohol, you just have so much more time. Yeah. Afterwards. That is, that there's just more time. I remember in that ypo group, we went around the circle and, everyone was like, oh, I wish I spent more time with my kids, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. I say, I got some hours that I spent plenty of time with my kids and the of time I'm Friday night. I'm not out drinking. I'm fine with that. Right? I chose to go boating instead of golfing because if I'm going to be out on something for four hours, you know, I want my kids to be there, you know, and so we can all be on a boat together versus, you know, on a golf course. Again, this whole thing with golf is just silly. I really I think it's I know it's your industry and you're making lots of money doing it and people enjoy it. But say the truth. Like, I play golf because I like it. And it's a great hobby and it's a great sport. And I bond with my friends. But don't ever say it's because, yeah, I just I haven't made the details of the course. Not yet. so I don't think anyone does. It's normally you stick with your foursome. Right. So you're not you're actually any business leads out of your for something. Right? So yeah, the other thing is, you know, I have people that work for me that are sales and they're good and they're making money, but, you know, they're not joining the right organizations to grow their business. I mean, there's a big paddle thing here on South Beach that, you know, they go to and you're not going to get any customers for that, you know, where are you going to get them is if you join, you know, the Rotary Club in Bolivia, you know, the farming Rotary Club, you know, that's where you'll get clients. You know, that's where you should be there, you know. So I would say your number one priority is your family. And the other thing is that is your career. And and and you can intertwine that, you know, and and we're getting close to wrapping up here. I don't want to hold you too much longer. I know you got a busy day, but you talk about, like, having these goals. And I actually just had this conversation with my team today. when we did our cultural building in the morning about how, like, a lot of people have these, like, floating doors and they're just kind of hoping that their path in their life is going to intersect with these goals. and some people do hit the lottery, but not many. but if you look at like, what their daily routine looks like, it's not really congruent with, that goal. How do you, like, reverse engineer that goal into like a daily actionable plan? So how do you make sure that it happens, that you reach that goal? I know as a sales person that you can't necessarily grind for, you know, eight hours of phone calling, but if you're, you know, it's just like language. they say, oh, if you study for 20 minutes a day, it's better that studying three hours at the end of the week. As a salesperson, they should be making themselves call X number. So it's 100 a day and it's depending on the businesses that I'm on. The phone calls are they have to pick up the phone and call, okay. They're their their goals are not going to intersect. But as a business owner you have to make the big mistake. I think for the first, I don't know, eight years of Expo credit now that I'm in my 11th is thinking that if I hire a salesperson, I'm going to get all this business and that whole world I have to generate leads, okay? And I can't call on salespeople, especially salespeople, been in the interest for a while. For some reason. They come in, they talk to this game, and they just don't produce. I'd rather bring someone fresh and teach them how to sell, you know, and and get good habits, not bad habits. But, you know, in any scenario, it's really, you know, making sure that they do X every day. my, my nephew Matt, you know, he does make him he sets up his day. He knows how he's going to do it. He's using Salesforce and, spa. HubSpot. Yeah. Hubspot's has made one. sets up who he's going to call for that day. And then he makes those calls and he's doing phenomenal. His doing it right. And he will be successful. He will be successful executing a plan. Yeah. Exactly right. So for your team, whatever that plan is that HubSpot okay. You set your lead. You do your clicks, you get it. And then you you wake up and the great thing is we have the data to say, right. If we do this many calls, we're going to get X amount of revenue. And, you know, people will say, I want to make $1 million in next five years. It's like, okay, well this is how many calls you got to make, right? It's like, well, I only made a 10th of those, but then they expect to still make a million. It's like, no, you're you're make a 10th of what you set there. Well, you know, as I was talking about before is, is that, you know, you make you land that big client, you don't celebrate, you go the next one, right? Yeah. Okay. For salespeople, they like to celebrate that big call, the big transaction, they add, and they take the rest a day off. You're not gonna be successful. one of my closest friends, today owns 28 dealerships. Mario Morgado, like us, start at the bottom. Yeah, like this corporate job. He didn't like it. Love cars. Hey, I'm a salesman, okay? Salesman. And he worked seven days a week, okay? And he took half days on Wednesdays so he could take his wife for lunch. Because lunch was cheaper than dinner. Okay? And he save that money, and. And his wife bought into the goal, save their money and paid off their mortgage in five years. So they had no leverage. Right? Did it for 20 years. Eventually got to the point where he had enough money to buy a broken down Honda, store in, Little Havana. They were going to close it, and he went and treated the same way. Works seven days a week. And today he's overseeing an empire. And it's because of that discipline, making the phone calls, following up on those call people that came in to look at cars. And I think the Honda or per square foot is like the number one in the country. and he just persists then and hard working and, you know, but he makes his life, his friendships that revolved around work. You know, we have an investment together. So we spend time together. And, you know, it's an honor to spend that time with that guy. He just amazing, real inspiration and I know I say like, you know what? I want my sales teams goals to be better. And really, I believe, like, there is no bad soldiers, only bad generals. So I ask for myself to like, understand how do I motivate, to like, you know, well, I think as a leader, though, as, you know, if you have five, you probably need to terminate one. But communicate all this is my expectations is my phone calls. You need to make and right is what I want to see. And if I see that activity, you're good to go, and I'll be patient with you. But if you're not doing those activities, then, you know, you got to go find something else. And start insulting. Be respectful. Yeah, but lay out what your expectations are and then hold them accountable. Even the guy that lands that big contract, if it was lock, he's going to have the same standards, set the same standards. Exactly. And he should be on the phone leading the group, you know, and you've already shown that you can do it. So final question is do you have any like good books that you would recommend to our audience that that were inspiring for you or game changers? I think, there's a lot of books. Bobby Castro's book upside is really good. and it's written for anyone. You don't have to be a college to have a college degree to read it. So I think you said it was in ninth grade, level. and it's where he dropped out of school, and now his soon to be a billionaire. his book is great, Rich dad. Poor dad is a great one because by assets, not liabilities. that's what started me on in this whole journey. You know, a lot of these books that were read. Now, I sort of just naturally live that way by saving my money because I knew I wanted to to, on my own company. Millionaire Next Door again about saving money is a really good book. Richest Man in Babylon is a good short story that, you know, The Alchemist is a Brazilian. Just talk about overcoming hardships. At the end, you get rewarded, you know, keep pushing through. you know, it's the there's a lot of good books, you know, and also, I think that for conversation, you should be reading the Wall Street Journal or, and, you know, and nothing else. Read the headlines if you're not a big reader just to see what's going on. So when you're in that expos business sales meeting that you can talk about not just your product, but something interesting that's going on, right? I'm, I'm older, so I've gotten more involved in politics. You know, I'm never going to be a politician, but I, I, I enjoy it. But part of is being able to tell stories, you know, and, and understanding what's going on in your country, in your state, in your, you know, in your city, opportunities come, you know, come by because you're just a day's call. I mean, you have that energy, you got to get out. You got to get talking. Here you are talking to me today. Came over to my house and one Tuesday evening started. We, you know, we hit it off. I mean, that's why we're here today, right? Because you're out. You have that energy, you know, appreciate it. That pleasure. Well, any last comments you'll give for entrepreneurs or anything you want to plug before we jump off? you know, I think that, you know, never give, but don't be silly about it. You know, save your money, set the self up. Don't worry about working for someone. If you're learning, learn on someone else's dime, and you know those opportunities will come. And if nothing else, do what I said. You know, become a sales company. And because everyone Apple needs sales and, you know, love your family because I think that at the end of the day, if you don't have family, it doesn't matter how much money you make. I'm not saying not make money, because having money, you can do more for your family, right? Right. But, you personally make the sacrifices. Well, thanks, George. It's been a pleasure having you. this wraps up episode nine of Shaking Hands. I'm your host, Jack, and you can find me on Instagram at Blue Collar Kid. That is blue collar KEHD. If you have any recommendations for gas or any questions you want us to address, please feel free to reach out. And other than that, stay tuned for more, interesting conversations next.