Shakin' Hands
Welcome to 'Shakin' Hands,' the podcast where entrepreneurship meets fascinating stories from the most intriguing minds today. From proven business practices to groundbreaking ideas that challenge the status quo, Shakin' Hands' is not just about the handshake that seals a deal but about the shared experiences and values that unite us all. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur, a seasoned business owner, or someone who loves a good story about overcoming odds, Shakin' Hands' promises to deliver compelling content that shakes up the conventional and celebrates the extraordinary.
Tune in to Shakin' Hands' where leaders, thinkers, and doers come to share, inspire, and, most importantly, connect. Let's shake hands with the world, one story at a time.
Host: Jack Moran
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Shakin' Hands
Ep.53 | He Solved What Apple Skipped - Andrew Green
In this episode of Shakin' Hands, Jack sits down with the co-founder and chief creative officer of Twelve South, a company known for designing elegant accessories that seamlessly integrate with Apple products. Andrew shares the brand's origin story, including how a single prototype evolved into a global product line admired for its craftsmanship and functionality. They dive deep into the challenges of scaling a physical product business, navigating manufacturing at volume, and staying lean while protecting the creative process. This conversation is packed with insights on trusting your taste, the importance of storytelling through design, why obsessing over the small stuff actually matters, and how staying intentional can lead to long-term success in both business and life.
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Host: Jack Moran
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Welcome to Shakin’ Hands, where we provide the platform for entrepreneurs and thought leaders to share their stories in order to hopefully influence others to get out of the rat race and chase their own dreams. If you have any recommendations for guests or questions that you want to be asked, please don't hesitate to reach out. Anyways, if you enjoy the podcast, please like, comment, subscribe and share in order to keep the podcast growing. Otherwise, I'm your host, Jack Moran and this is Shakin’ Hands. If you're looking for business mentorship, I have a place where you can get feedback on your unique personal development and business growth challenges. Over the last year, I've brought together a group of impact driven thought leaders where we meet every single day to discuss psychology, communication, mindset, and business case studies. We have people who have made millions of dollars, lost millions of dollars, Harvard MBAs and new entrepreneurs like you and I. Entrepreneurship can be lonely. So if you're looking for a support system, please follow the link in the description below for some more information. What's good? Like you tell me a little bit about what you got going on. What's your, what's your business? So, I'm co-founder of 12 South. We started 12 South in 2009. My wife and I started it on the proverbial dining room table. And, the concept was to to do that really compelling accessories for, like, Macs and MacBooks. We were kind of coming out of like the golden age of, of, the billion dollar accessory ecosystem for iPods and iPhones. And, a new consumer to the Apple brand would, would buy an iPod or get an iPod for Christmas. And then when they need a new laptop, they they loved the brand and wanted to like step into like a MacBook. And so they went from a $200 iPod to a $2,000 MacBook, but the ecosystem didn't follow them, right? There was just white PC accessories, that were Mac compatible and, and, as a as an Apple fanboy myself, I knew that that was like B.S. and that, the Mac community would really, really, eat up and deserve, like, really compelling accessories for them. Really the creative community. Something like, the folks that like, you know, started dedicating themselves to laptop life in terms of, using a laptop like a desktop connected to a huge external monitor, separate keyboard and mouse and, and rocking that there weren't really accessories or tools to really make that possible. So one of the first products that we did at 12 South in 2009 was, a simple product called the Book Arc. Just this little arc of aluminum that held your MacBook closed and vertical mode. So it kind of cleaned up a small, tidy desk and, and then connected it to an external monitor using closed clamshell mode, which a lot of people didn't know about. Closed clamshell. Closed clamshell mode is is the mode. That's what Apple calls it when you use your MacBook close, but connected to an external monitor with the external keyboard and mouse. Basically using it like a desktop, even though it's a laptop. So dedicating yourself to a big, bright 20 30 inch monitor for like, your workspace, and then you unplug that stuff and use it like a laptop when you're on the go. So we started 12 South in 2009, really dedicated to making, like, Apple and Mac accessories, for the creative community, and kind of went from there. Oh, cool. Is this your first business that you've done? Not the first business I've been in. The first business I've started for sure. My wife came from a fashion history background, so she actually knew what to do. And I was really smart about, you know, the merchandizing and the finances and stuff. And then I was kind of the creative nerd, who just wanted to make accessories and toys and stuff that I needed. Yeah. And so it was a good combination. What were you doing before you started this business? I kind of made my way into this space, through a company called Griffin Technology in Nashville, Tennessee. Griffin back in the day was, like, just kind of pirates. They would, like, get Apple computers and rip them apart and find the opportunities, and holes in it. Apple relies on third party companies to do almost everything from software to also hardware. They also are really progressive in their technology. Of course they are, right. But so often they leave opportunities behind and moving forward. Right. Like way, way back in the day. Something Griffin did successfully is, Apple used to use keyboards with the ADB port connector. And then they moved to USB. But there is, all these really important dongles that unlock software at the time. And so they made a product that I made, which was nothing but just an ADB to USB adapter. And so while it Griffin and like working with Paul Griffin, the founder, I really kind of figured out that if you look for the opportunities, you can you can make accessories that are really clutch, that really kind of unpack, ways to use, tools different. And honestly, that's kind of what, what Apple was all about. And so that really kind of like opened my eyes, to, to the opportunities that if you kind of look for them like that. So from Griffin actually went, to a company called DLO Digital Life's Outfitters. DLO was like one of the first big brands to to really, really go into the iPad ecosystem, the first accessories and CompUSA, this old computer store, and then Best Buy in a big way. And, and DLO was really one of the first big box accessory makers for the iPod and iPhone ecosystem. And so, that's actually what got me to Charleston and about 2005. We moved our family down here and, and, and helped DLO kind of take over the world. And, and we sold to Philips and on the 2007, 2008 and, and by then, you know, I was getting the itch to do it myself. So my wife's career was like winding down. She was working remote from New York City. And, and so in 2009, we decided to, like, do this ourselves again with the insight that there's this massive ecosystem for the mobile devices from Apple, but nothing of note for for the larger computers. To, to make good accessories and tools to really expand what you can do with those. So what was the environment of, Griffin and DLO? Were those large companies or small business? Yeah. No. Not at the time. Griffin was in Nashville and, and just, just, just a handful of, like, super talented technicians and, and, and people just kind of making it happen. DLO is a little more, larger and sophisticated. DLO actually, they're one of their magic tricks. Was, if you recall, when when iPads and iPhones came out, there was a race to market for the accessories in the cases because it was a big secret, like what the iPad was going to look like or what the iPhone was going to look like. Interesting. So you would find that out in September and you ever had the first cases, would get the pegs and get the business and stuff like that. And so DLO became very, very good at that. One of the ways they became very good at that is that they would ship the, the raw product Unpackaged, to Durham, North Carolina, and do the packaging on site in Durham. And that would save them, weeks because they could, they could cram like 200 action jackets and to like a small box and Fedex that at a very low cost jean jacket that was that was this neoprene case. So like, the iPod was great. Holds like a thousand things on your pocket. Right? Well, okay, so the action jacket was kind of the first kind of case that you use to jog or go to the gym with your iPod. And then, they made the trans pod, which was this, like FM, adapter that lets you play, and power your iPod in your car over your FM radio and stuff like that back in the day. So, so you did really well. So again, they had, not manufacturing but packaging facilities in Durham, North Carolina. And then the executive and creative team came down to Charleston in 2005 ish. And so that's when I joined them. Interesting. And so I kept designing products and then doing the marketing at the same time and stuff. And so a little bit of everything. So what was that transition like from working for these companies in the space to starting your own, business? Well, besides terrifying, you just kind of did it. I kind of started keeping a notebook of ideas. Like, what if you did this? What if you did that? There's a need for this. There's a need for that. What would that look like? And so it had a pile of them. I had, like, probably 30 or 40 possible ideas, and it didn't really fit at all with, with what the other companies were doing, you know, DLO purchased by Philips was still focused on primarily soft goods, for the iPhones and iPads and stuff like that. So Mac accessories were not really their thing. So, when I, when I stepped away from that, to do Mac accessories, they were like, how about it? Good luck with that. You want to do a stand that holds a MacBook closed? So it had seemed kind of wacky, but, so a pile of ideas and then started figuring out how to make them put a little deck together and started running a by kind of trusted friends and advisors and getting their feedback. And then at some point, you got to figure out how to do it. And, we, we made prototypes. Prototypes by any means necessary. You know, we had a cousin and, rural Tennessee that had like a, a machine shop. And so they cut like a really crude, version of the book arc. And, for the protection inside the little place, the holds the MacBook, we put, aquarium tubing to protect the MacBook. And so, I mean, you know, so I had some contacts in the space, and started kind of, I have this kind of crazy idea, we're thinking of starting, a thing to dedicate ourselves to, to the to Mac accessories. So we kind of just did it, and there's a manufacturer that actually kind of dog ear to magazines as well as like, business business 2.0 magazine. That's a old magazine. And it was talking about sourcing from Asia. And there was this one person featured there. And so when I was ready, we kind of just went to the internet kind of search drought found her, found her Skype, and I, rung her up, you know, and, and, got over to China and, met with them and, and they really got it. And, and so we're off to the races. So when did it start? Like gaining traction. You're building these prototypes, and it I don't know, it's it sounds like maybe you had a little bit of a deal flow coming from some of these old partners that you were working with. Not really. I mean, we kind of like. It was pretty independent. We had to figure out how to make them, and like 3 or 4, the products kind of became clear how to make, with a couple contacts, like the one, overseas and, so we were getting prototypes made. I, I knew the, the, the Apple Store team, from working at, at Griffin and then DLO, we helped launch the Apple Store there. And so I reached out and said, we have this kind of, like, crazy idea. We'd love to come out and show you and crickets for like, weeks were like, well, that that's not going to work. But then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, a dude calls me up. I had sent, like, the pitch deck, you know, and, they said, you know, the the retail team, you know, wants to see you. And all we really wanted to do was to kind of get our ideas blessed. We were actually going to go start overseas because that's the hardest one and kind of like work the kinks out and then maybe come to the States and then maybe years later, be worthy enough to like, you know, have our products in the Apple Store. And so you're going to start in their Apple stores overseas. We were no, no, not at all. I didn't think that we could get in the Apple stores. That was crazy. That was kind of like a really far away dream. We were going to start with a small app. Those are Apple premium resellers, little small stores overseas, kind of like build a brand and build up a name and stuff like that. And then maybe one day be an apple. But so so they granted us a meeting and we just kind of wanted their endorsement. We kind of wanted them to say, yeah, this is cool. Good luck with that. Keep keep us posted. Right. And so, we went out to, to Apple. I took a meeting with like, 3 or 4 folks, on campus. And, I had just received the first prototype of one of our first products that was called the backpack, this, like, wacky product that, like, created a shelf on the back of an iMac where you kind of storage your hard drives and hubs and stuff like that. And, I hadn't tested it. We'd like, just gotten it out of the box. And so we kind of run through our presentation, kind of talking about like really just 3 or 4 products. We had prototypes for 2 or 3 products, and then we had this, this backpack that I never tried before. And, and the buyer for Apple said, this looks kind of cool. Can you demonstrate this product on this iMac right here? And I'm like, oh, I'm like, so, you know, sure. Of course. So I took it out. I don't know if like, they could see my hand shaking as I kind of like put the hooks on and stuff like that. And then like, you know, carefully put it on the back of the iMac. And then I think he took something crazy. I don't know what he took, but he, like, took something out of that and like dropped it on it. And I was like and it held it was like, great. So we'll carry this and we'll pick up the book, like, when can you ship? And we're like, what? What just happened? And so he's like, yeah, this is great stuff. Love what you're doing. We'll take the book arc in the backpack and sort of when can you ship? And the answer was, I don't know. We need to figure out how to make it. So. So that was amazing. And that was that was a huge break. And I think they kind of recognized that we were really sincere, and wanting to really kind of like, elevate, the ecosystem and weren't just there for the opportunity, weren't just there like, you know, surfing on the coattails of that opportunity that we wanted to really elevate, the, the ecosystem of people using Macs and MacBooks to do amazing creative things. And so they appreciated it and they gave us our shot, which is funny. So when we launched, we launched at Apple Stores, and then through kind of the same kind of contact and Amazon Direct as well. So we started I like the largest channels there are. And so it was interesting because we had to reverse the, the concept. We had to defend those brand, those those stores, of our brand because at that point we couldn't sell to everybody. We had to actually defend it because we kind of it was it was odd. We started at the top and had to defend down and be really careful about our distribution at that point from now. What do you mean you had to defend it? Well, you didn't want to put your products everywhere because you could create price erosion. Okay, explain that to me. Yep. If you if you distribute your products in every single store that it can possibly go, there comes a point where the only way those stores can compete is to drop your price. And and if any one channel, you know, drops the price, all of the other channels watch it and they drop it as well. So, it really erodes your pricing, in any given area, if you put it in too many places, and those places have no choice but to drop the price. Interesting. Ideally, you you everyone is at SRP so that it's like fair. And so everyone you know has what they need to write a price or what? Yeah. MSRP manufacturers suggested retail price. So, so yeah. So honestly, we really just, we're really narrow, controlled our, our distribution really, really carefully. And then sold off our website as well and just kept showing stuff to our friends in Cupertino, and they kept buying it. And it was a Rashomon, like, you know, going out to like, Apple and showing them this, like, dumb idea that you had in the shower six months before and then going, that's cool. Let's, let's do that. So how did you how did you know about this price erosion? I feel like that would be like a lesson that you would run into a wall to figure out. But we had a we had a rep, named Chris Mason. That actually helped us out, you know, in these really kind of humongous opportunities. And that was really the first thing that he pitched his like, this is all great, but this creates a different strategy and that is to defend and keep your, your channels as clean as possible. And so not selling to everybody, being very careful intentional about that. I think like any business can do that by choosing who they sell to. You don't necessarily want to sell to everybody where your products are sometimes as important as what they are. It's very interesting. Right? You know, if you're in Nordstrom, your product is going to be viewed differently than if you were in a discount store. Right. And that is going to be, you know, how the market like considers your brand or experiences your brand. So it seems like, you know, you're lucky that you had someone that kind of gave you that advice. You didn't walk into that, you know, whole, and learned the hard way. What were some experiences, that you weren't as lucky that, you know, did cause some collateral damage that you had to figure out after the fact? I mean, that happens every day. You know, we're we're still, running 12 South now. 12 South, took on partners and 22, and, so I'm still, involved as well, obviously. So it's it's always a challenge. Tariffs. We're in the middle of a massive challenge for us and everyone else. So, keeping our channels clean is a constant challenge. You know, it's it's crazy. You want to sell to everyone who wants to buy it, but if you put it out in too many places and and there becomes a pricing concern and it affects. Sure. I mean, like, there's robots that look at the prices of all their competitors and stuff like that, and they chase each other. And so you can get into a pricing death spiral very easily. You want to try and avoid that. So, so yeah. So I mean, it's not a one time thing. It's just kind of the, the, the, the cost of doing business and like just something that you kind of learn. What is it like doing business overseas? Are you guys still. I know you said early you guys were doing some manufacturing and what we sell in over 50 countries and, where we have, you know, a handful of products in every Apple store in the world, including in Asia. And manufacturing overseas is wonderful. Honestly. It's the toy store. And it's the toy store because, like, Southeast China became, experts at making, a small amount of products, for a good price. And when you're a small business who has this great idea, you can't afford to make 100,000 of them. You need to make 800 or 1500. You have, a minimum order quantity. Right. And and contract factories can do that because they set up an assembly line and they manage ordering and testing all of the subcomponents. So the contract factories, you know, handle getting you a sellable finished product. And that's what's difficult to do anywhere else, especially in the States, and especially at a really small quantity that lets a small business try an idea. Right? Like so back to our first idea, the book Ark in the backpack. We couldn't order 100,000 of those, and we couldn't afford that. And we didn't have the channels for that. We had to try that product first. We had to order a couple thousand. And getting money for that was was challenging as well. Right. So the contract factories that really are the toy factory for most of the world are why, we have such great, and expensive goods, because they're set up for that. And so it's not I mean, it it does involve the cost of labor, but more so it's the efficiency that they built to do that in a very flexible way. They can build our product in the morning and then come back and build a camera in the afternoon, because they're flexible in how they assemble stuff. And so that's why we manufacture there are other tools of manufacturers all over the world now we're in India, Vietnam, a little bit of Taiwan and a little bit of China. And one of my favorite things in the world was, was visiting some of these places because they're craftsmen, they're they're spectacularly talented at what they do. And so it's, it's an honor, actually, to work with some of these really talented folks. Who's the best? They're all different. Depends on what you want to do. Right. And then sometimes you need to find another partner when you have a technology you want. We have a really popular product called the, the air fly, which is basically a Bluetooth transmitter. That's how you use your air pods on an airplane, right? Yep. For the in-flight entertainment. And so when we had the idea for air flight, we didn't have a partner that did Bluetooth. And so we needed to go find a partner that was an expert at Bluetooth and then work with them to develop the product. They're a fantastic partner. And so sometimes you actually have to find new partners when you have a new idea and you don't have like a current partner that that has that like core competency or capability. So you had mentioned before now, not your manufacturing partners, but sounds like you've taken on some partners, like on the equity level or something within the, within the company. What is that like, you know, how do you maintain the integrity of your vision now when you have other decision makers in the, in the sphere, what's completely different than the entrepreneur kind of way that, you know, you were just like, you know, you know, in the trenches, like, just like duking it out and like, surviving, you know, we we, partnered with private equity in 22 and it and it's like, take it to the next level. So it's really exciting. You're you're building up a larger team. You're compartmentalizing, the effort so that it can scale. So it's completely different challenges, but but still kind of fun challenges. On their own, it's it's a whole different kind of beast. But I will say it still requires creativity. It still requires that idea. Kind of like Nashville says, it all starts with a song. And what we do it still starts with an idea, and that's still the most important part. But but everything else from there is, a little more sophisticated on a larger scale. How do you keep the peace with, like, so many players now in the in the tank? I don't, I'm the founder in the corner that, like, just kind of comes up with it today. No, no, no. Yes. I have been known to create chaos. I try not to do that very much. It's been an adjustment. You know, listen, when we were, like, 5 or 6 people in a small little room, everyone could do a little bit of everything. It's it's not really that way anymore. It's, it's a little bit more sophisticated in compartmentalize. You said your, wife came from the fashion industry, right? You bet. Well, first of all, what's it like running a business with your romantic partner? Challenging? How so? Every way. My partner was amazing. Really smart. Really contributed a lot. But it's difficult, turning it off, going from colleague to, to spouse, in the evening. I mean, when you lay your head on the pillow, are you. Are you talking about a business thing or not? You know, how do you shut it off? How do you interact and and the workspace that is respectful to them as your spouse, but also interacting with them as a colleague, going through creative differences and challenges like that? I'm not sure I recommend it, but we were good at it and it was successful. So that's the tricky thing. What habits did you guys instill to have success as partners and not have a negative impact on the relationship, or minimize that negative effect on the relationship? Doing business with each other? Well, especially in the early days, it was still really everything was still fun. Everything was still super exciting. So, so traveling all over the world. As business partners and, and partner partners, was a blast. And so that was really fun. Saved on travel. Stay in one room. Right. And we had great adventures. So especially on the early days, like starting up a business with your spouse. However, I do remember really early on before we launched, we were in, Four Points Sheraton, the four points. Sheldon, this how they they they set it and we had gone there with one thing in mind that had completely failed completely like we were in. So we were, you know, in the hotel room looking each other like, what in the hell are we going to do? How do we get into this mess? And that was challenging because I'm like, am I ruining this person's life? What are we doing? You know, risking our kids college education funds and stuff, trying to start this silly business, and then. And then literally a couple hours later, we got a drawing of the of the first product from the factory that ended up working out. And so we ran out and celebrated and found some fancy restaurant to eat at and stuff. So, so it was it was quite the adventure. Honestly, it got more difficult the further we got into it because we had to start compartment izing our roles. And if you don't like the role, you know, you can own McDonald's. But if you're stuck making the fries, you don't necessarily love your gig. Yeah. And so that that became a little, a little tricky when we had to kind of, like, separate our duties and stuff, and, and I would like, go off and do interviews and, and be at Apple and stuff. And, and she was like stuck back doing the paperwork and all the hard stuff. You gotta have all the fun. You know, that's kind of what it look like at step. That's what I was good at and that was my contribution and stuff. So I would say the most fun certainly was the beginning and as the most risky, and I do not have any advice maybe to like, I don't know, I don't know, it's tricky. Yeah, you said so. I was going to ask this, but then I circled back a little bit. But she came from, the fashion industry. How much or how important, is the esthetics of that product? How much does that correlate to the success of the product as the esthetics? And I know Steve Jobs, you know, you said you're an you're an Apple geek. Tourism. Steve Jobs was huge about esthetics, of course. And I think he took an esthetics class in college that was, like his biggest inspiration for he took a calligraphy. Calligraphy? That was what it was. He took calligraphy class at Reed after he had decided to, like, like quit. So I think he was auditing the class and, and in the calligraphy class, he, he discovered and learned about the beauty of the, the shapes, of of fonts and lettering and stuff and spacing and stuff. And that then directly informed, how they built the Mac and like which led to the the entire desktop publishing revolution and stuff like that. So that's definitely one of those connect the dots later and just kind of follow your gut through that. Do you embody some of those philosophies 100%? I met, jobs once or twice, and it was very inspiring, a lot of fun. So, yeah, so, I mean, you know, and just the whole thing, different thing, I mean, like, the creativity is often looking at something just different, you know, like recognizing an opportunity and recognizing that it it a solution can can fill the gap and stuff like that, you know, especially in the apple space, because Apple for their size makes a really small, small selection of products, and they rely heavily on on third parties to fill those gaps. And that's in software like imagine the iPhone without the App Store, the iPhone shipped without an app store. The first couple phones, there weren't external apps, but like look at it now, the App Store in a lot of ways, is just as important to the phone as the hardware. And I mean, of course, the apps on, on the the Macs and MacBook, Microsoft Office and the Adobe Suite and stuff like that, they complete what the hardware was built to do. Well. So do accessories, right? Accessories, connected to your car or how you charge it on the go or give you extra power, when you have a long day with a battery and stuff like that. So the accessories, in the Apple ecosystem, at least, is really important to the success of the whole thing. And what a privilege it is to have a partner like Apple that is so forward thinking. And, you know, has that given you a lot of inspiration within your own business working along? I mean, you obviously liked Apple before working with them, but. Well, so I mean, when I get the opportunity to visit there, I have to hide like my glee, you know what I mean? I'm such a nerd. And so I go there and I'm still just like, oh my gosh, word up, you know? So, so it's still kind of shock and off for me. Like walking into the new mothership. Yeah. The first time was just like, oh my gosh. But but then, you know, you deliver your idea and stuff and, you know, it's just just people in that building like, you know, trying to change the world too. So yeah, heck yeah, they're inspiring. But at this point, 12 South, really stands on its own. It's had enough of its own ideas to where 12 South is an inspiration to others and stuff, because we've shown that you can take an opportunity, you can take a blind side, and, and fill that need with the product that, that, you know, you can sell and do well with. How important do you think it is and how pivotal is it that you have this like you're intellectually stimulated by this company and by the venture and by the opportunities that you're pursuing? Like you have a personal passion for these things. How pivotal is that to the success of the company? And would it be as successful if it was just monotonous and you had pursued something that you work? No. So 12 South specifically makes accessories that elevates hardware. I mean, mostly Apple hardware, but like the Air Fly, for example, works great with Bose and Sonys and beats, which is now still Apple, but but you know what I mean? So, you know, 12 South exists to be subservient and elevate up other people's hardware. Now we're inspired by Apple because who's not inspired by Apple? You know, when George Foreman grills come in blue red and and Bondi blue and pink and stuff because it was influenced by that. The original iMac, Apple influences everybody, but we're influenced by a lot of things. I'm influenced by architecture, influenced by speaker companies, bang and all of a sudden makes like insane stuff. So I mean, as a designer, I just kind of am open to a lot of inspiration and especially from stuff that's not necessarily in our category, like kitchen hardware color and like some of the stuff they do with the faucets and stuff is just spectacularly beautiful. And, and I'm inspired by the curves and the finishes and stuff like that. And honestly, to have something unique in our space, that's the best place to go. Be inspired as to pull materials and like kind of design languages from from other areas and bring them into what you're doing. So if you want to make a a really cool charger for the bedside table, but what's what's that piece of marble from West Elm look like? What's that lamp look like? What's what's the hardware from color look like in the adjacent bathroom? Those are really great places to bring into accessorizing your your your lifestyle and your space. The reason I ask is because, you know, some of our audience, if not a majority of our audience, may be in that like transition stage where they want to start a business. And, you know, one of the values that we promote a lot is like not leading, with financial motivations, but more of that, like passion and that intellectual interest, because in the, you know, entrepreneurship, there's so many, so much adversity that you hit and it makes it a lot more difficult to get through that adversity when you're not actually passionate and interested in the idea. And when I listen to you talk, everything that you talk about is, you know, how you're interested, how you're you know, you've always been interested in this space, like these cool ideas. You're inspired like that language. Not once have you mentioned the reason why you're doing this is because of financial gain. Now, obviously, that's a part of it. But you're leading with that purpose first. And I think it's important, that we demonstrate to entrepreneurs that, you know, finding something that is intellectually stimulating is the like building block of a of a good company. Money is the reward for following your passion intelligently. Right. You have to make all the numbers work or you don't get to do it again. But it has to start with, you know, scratching your own itch, and something that you're deeply passionate about because that'll get you through the difficult days. That'll get you excited when you see your first prototypes or when you make the baby steps, towards success. Or let's just call it survival. So, yeah. So I highly recommend I mean, you've heard people talk about I'm going to start a, I'm going to go to college, I'm gonna go to entrepreneur program and I'm looking for a business to start because I want to make money. And you're like, that's never gonna work, dude, right? I mean, maybe it will, but it wouldn't for me. You've got to find your passion or you're not going to bring to bear the energy necessary to make it and a tough business agree to completely. And I think it's like the whole game of entrepreneurship is really a mental battle more than anything else. And that's why, you see, you know, these people with these great, like, Harvard MBAs, and they have these business degrees and they don't perform as well as someone who maybe has some like, you know, some emotional trauma or something that's driving them. And they have this like mental fortitude, like, those are the people that, that persevere. It's like, not the financial. It's the it's the internal. It's not the external, it's intrinsic motivations. It's to solve a problem you care deeply about, whether that's a service or whether that's creating a product or something like that. If you don't care deeply about it, it's going to show you can't fake this. It has to come from like a genuine deep seated passion. 100%. I have to ask, what was it like meeting, Steve Jobs classic. Where did you meet him? It was it, it was at one of the last Macworld Tokyos, and I, had just started. Has probably three months in at Griffin Technology and, we had a product called the Power Mate, which was like a little metal volume knob. And we had set it up to control different things on a mac. And so, my two bosses were like, oh, having a smoke. And, I was like, you know, kind of manning the front, demonstrating the power man and say, oh, I've heard about this thing. Can you show me a demo of it? And I looked up and it was like Steve and Katie Cotton. And I was like, oh my God. Yes, Steve, I'll be glad to give you a demo. Check this out. And so Bam just ran through it. It went really well. And you're like, okay, that's cool, that's cool. And so he was walking away and I said, have you seen the other stuff we're doing? We actually took your iPod and made it a remote control. It's like really? And so like, pulled him back into the booth and we went through all the stuff. We talked about the keynote he just finished and, and just, we talked about DVD players. There was a portable DVD players were a thing, and he was like, oh, I've never seen this or that. And I said, boy, your iBook is the best one right now. He's like, you know, and, and so it was really fun. It was great. It was certainly a 15, 20 minutes I'll never forget in that short interaction. Was there anything that you take away from him, like how he interpreted things or his personality type? It was really nice, dude, actually. I mean, he has a reputation for being hard, and I think that comes from him being decisive and like just just not suffering fools. Right. But in our interactions, it was he was he was really kind. And I ran into him a couple times at campus, starting stuff. He wasn't involved in what we were doing, but just, like, seeing the dude was pretty cool. Yeah, yeah. So I have a question that I like to ask, and I only have a couple more. And I know you're busy guys. Well, if you run, but, if you had $1 million of guilt free capital right now so you didn't have to pay it back, how would you deploy it within the business? Which I know you guys were partnered up with private equity, so it's probably not too hard to come by. But I'm interested to hear what you think are the priorities within the business. Well. I'll spin the question around and say, especially for entrepreneurs, cash is king. Don't mess around. Cash is king. The lights turn out when the cash is gone. So you know when you're getting started and and you're kind of finding your way through it. You're looking at, you know, your profit margins and this and that. At the end of the day, all that wipes away in cash, cash, cash. So if you have an opportunity for cash, take it. If, if you have a thing that is kind of like a little bit of a side channel to what you're doing, take the cash. Cash allows you to like, fight another day. So and and a start up, an entrepreneurial scenario. I would just recommend that no matter what you do, cash is king. Cash, cash, cash, that that lets you, again wake up and do it again another day. Absolutely. That's great advice. What do you think is the single biggest lesson that you've learned through this entrepreneurial journey? What's the something that you know now that you wish you knew when you started up? Well, there's hundreds of lessons left and right. And, honestly, I've got to do it again one day because I've learned so many lessons. I did some stuff good and some stuff bad and made some mistakes that that, kind of makes me want to, like, do it again one day. Just to, like, you know, deploy the lessons and see, like, if, if I learned anything. But like, the, the the single lesson, through starting 12 sell probably the whole trust your gut thing. Probably, you know, if you follow your feelings and don't, like, second guess it too much, just kind of like go straight. Straight arrow. From what your gut is telling you, you have really no better measure than what your gut is telling you to do. What do you think that works? I don't know, some quantum like. All right. I think because people typically know exactly what to do and 100 things get in the way of that static, like, other people's advice. Doubt. But you knew what to do really quickly. That's kind of like the your first idea was typically the best idea. I think that's all kind of related. Interesting. If, people are interested in your products or they want to reach out to you and are interested by you, where can they find you? Where can I find your company? Well, I mean, 12 South is awesome and 12 south.com. We're sold all over the world, but. But the best place to get a, a vibe for what we do is at 12, slate.com. A lot of people find us through one product, and then they, like, look at all products like, oh my gosh, I need that one and that one and that one. And so that's really fun. So I mean, honestly, at 12 South, we let the products do the talking I love that. Well, I appreciate you coming on. It's very inspiring to hear what you've done. And you're very articulate about your entire business. And I can feel the passion. It really translates into pleasure. Yeah. So, appreciate it. Thanks, bro. It's.
