Shakin' Hands
Welcome to 'Shakin' Hands,' the podcast where entrepreneurship meets fascinating stories from the most intriguing minds today. From proven business practices to groundbreaking ideas that challenge the status quo, Shakin' Hands' is not just about the handshake that seals a deal but about the shared experiences and values that unite us all. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur, a seasoned business owner, or someone who loves a good story about overcoming odds, Shakin' Hands' promises to deliver compelling content that shakes up the conventional and celebrates the extraordinary.
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Host: Jack Moran
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Shakin' Hands
Investigative Author: Interviewing a South American dictator's right-hand man
Investigative author and professional ghostwriter Cillian Dunne unpacks the reporting journey behind his book The Right Hand Man. After a call in October 2023, Cillian traveled in and out of Panama to interview Carlos Whitgreen, Manuel Noriega’s right-hand man, while tracking down long-hidden documents tied to the regime. They break down what it takes to earn trust with a source who can read people, how you write an “unreliable narrator” without losing the audience, and why stakes and pacing matter as much as facts. Cillian shares how the project changed the way he sees power and foreign policy, and closes with what’s next for the book: a Spanish version, an audiobook, and a push toward film adaptation.
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Host: Jack Moran
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And I write about it in the book like pretty early, but it's like, you know, my under like the reason why I was going down to Panama was to interview all of these people who were like involved in in a like a dictatorship, like a regime. So in my head, I'm going down there and like there's probably going to be some form of danger. Uh, but then as you know, as I meet all these people and you know, introduce to like Edgar and like all of these, all these guys that like Jose knows that are still very much like very connected down there. I'm like, oh, these are just like normal guys who like really like to have fun. And then I started having fun and and there was like a nice balance between like, you know, the serious, like intense interviews with Carlos where I had to sort of like I had to be careful about what I said and and like how I contested them.
Jack Moran:Welcome to Shaking Hands, where we provide the platform for entrepreneurs and thought leaders to share their stories in order to hopefully influence others to get out of the rat race and chase their own dreams. If you have any recommendations for guests or questions that you want to be asked, please don't hesitate to reach out. Anyways, if you enjoy the podcast, please like, comment, subscribe, and share in order to keep the podcast growing. Otherwise, I'm your host, Jack from Randon, and this is Shaking Hands.
Cillian Dunne:October 2023, you called me and uh you like introduced me to Jose, and and essentially I was introduced to like the story of uh Manuel Noriega and Carlos Whitgreen, his right-hand man. And you guys gave me the opportunity to go down to Panama to to both like live with and and adjacent to and interview Carlos for an extended period of time and sort of learn the true story behind the rise, rule, and fall of Noriega, the dictatorship, and then also the relationship that he had with the US and the CIA and the DEA. And then that sort of culminated in this like two-year project where I would come and go to Panama. And every time I I arrived in Panama, I was sort of I was interviewing Carlos and you know various like members of Noriega's inner circle or his or from his regime in the 80s, and uh, and then on top of that, you know, sort of collectively we we found those documents or we we spoke, we interviewed Jose Hilario Trujillo, who introduced us to documents that hundreds of documents that Noriega owned for decades and sort of kept secret, and a lot of those documents uh you know were were relatively new information for people, but they not only backed up Carlos's story, but they sort of repositioned the narrative that the US government and the CIA have sort of been pushing for like 40 years. So it's not really like a revelatory book, but it's a it's a book that sort of um takes a look at a topic that's pretty relevant now with like Maduro and and just sort of uh and reframes it in in a new light.
Jack Moran:Yeah, I want to get into the Maduro stuff, but um yeah, I was pretty stoked that you took it because I feel like I encounter a bunch of opportunities. Like now that I've been in kind of an entrepreneurship game for a while, had the podcast, like people see the socials, a lot more deals start presenting themselves. Um, and I'm constantly like going to my old buddies and being like, hey, you should jump on this, or I've got the sick opportunity. But it's really difficult to get over that hump of the deferred gratification with people. Um, and you know, from the beginning, I think that we had an opportunity with you know this story, and you could have easily just been like this is bullshit and not hopped on it and not you know flipped over that stone and seeing if it was a possibility. Um, but I mean I think it you know worked out well that you did, and and it's yeah, kind of sick seeing it come to fruition.
Cillian Dunne:It was sweet. I mean, your guys' pitch was pretty good, if I'm being honest. It was like cold war, like drug smuggling, dictators, cartels. I was like, whoa. I I was like, whoa, like I I I just when would I ever get the opportunity to like actually to like really do that? Like nobody really does, you know, like nobody gets the opportunity to just like go to Central America and like actually be in the room with these people, but not only like be in the room with these people and have like the sort of interview process like like go on, but have there be like a little bit of implied trust as well, like because of you and and Jose. Yeah, so I mean it was just a killer opportunity. Um I'm glad I did it, even though there was a lot of struggle, yeah, yeah, you know, in those two years.
Jack Moran:And like it's funny because like um even like a lot of people even still think it's like bullshit. And when I before you came down, and when I was in Panama, obviously I'm interacting with like Jose and his circle and being like, whoa, this is pretty crazy. But like, you know, I'm going and talking to Mark or I'm talking to Michael or like all my buddies, and I'm telling them like the conversations and the meetings that I'm having, like that the interview with the Russian that I told you about. Um, and like I've pretty sure like most people just think I'm completely full of shit. Yeah. Like I'm just lying out of my ass. And so for you to, you were probably one of my first buddies, childhood buddies, that came down and got to experience the circle and really immerse yourself in it. You know, I had a couple buddies that came down for like five or six days, but having someone to like really immerse themselves in the environment and see the deals go down, see how we do business, like really see what's going on behind the scenes was like kind of cool. And it also like puts some validity to like what I've been saying. Yeah. Um, but even still, like when you were down writing the book, I would tell people, like, yeah, we got all these documents, like these CIA documents and DEA documents, and they're like looking at me like I can tell they just think I'm full of shit. And even now that the book has gotten released, I'm like, Yeah, we did this book, and I like I don't know why people just like don't buy it. They're like, How the fuck are you down with like, yeah, you know what I mean?
Cillian Dunne:Dude, dude, nobody literally nobody believes it. I still to this day for you, yeah, kind of. They um it's people that are like close to me, I think they they're sort of just like they don't know what to think of it. Uh like they they're just like whoa, like they hear like the trigger, like or like the buzzwords, like dictator, cartel, like all that sort of stuff, and they're like, oh, this is you know, that's really cool, but they don't really understand like just how I guess like difficult that that is to like kind of get that access. But then you get people like you know, I I do like podcasts, like try like market the book, and you get people in the comments being like, This guy's like a total charlatan, which means like he thinks he knows more, or like he acts like he knows more than he does, or this guy is, you know, people are like this guy's like a CIA asset, like or you know, like retarded shit. But uh, but nobody seems to sort of and like I tell the story pretty cleanly. Like, I got a call from you, my childhood buddy, who lives in and you know does a lot of work in Panama. Jose is your business partner who's from Panama. That's how the access sort of like started, right? And and from there it was like very much like an adventure. Yeah, from there it was like very much an adventure, but then people are like, Why would they trust you? And they're like, Why you? And they should ask that, right? Because it's like it's a good question, but they're like, Why you? Like, why this, why that? And uh, and nobody, like, nobody actually believes it.
Jack Moran:But then I think uh and it kind of helps to like know the background of Jose. He's like really nonchalant about these kinds of things, and like he'll bring you to these high like when we first started doing business, he was bringing me to like meetings with these like NSA people, and he was bringing me to like a meeting with the mayor of Miami, and like I'm just sitting on the sidelines of these meetings that I have no business being at. So I think it takes like understanding him and having that context to realize like why he would just take some random person that he's never met before and introduce him to like his like craziest contacts. Like, he just really doesn't like care.
Cillian Dunne:Yeah, dude, but I I mean thankfully I like understood just how how cool that was like at the time, and I was like, I'm not gonna fuck this up. So I I was like the second I flew down to Panama the first time and like met Jose and Carlos like pretty much right away, I was like, I was like locked in, you know. Um, like even though uh it was like I I didn't really know that much about like a lot of this stuff like right away. I I had to do like a lot of learning, like right, I guess like the first two weeks of me being in Panama, but um I was I was locked in right away and regardless of like how big the opportunity sounded or or like how cool it was, I was sort of just like this is like genuinely a really awesome book. You know what I mean? Like this is like a really cool book, whether uh you know whether it like takes off or not. So I was gonna do it 10 times out of 10, but I'm just happy that like it sort of ended up the way it did, and and it is like a credible sort of thing.
Jack Moran:Yeah, so walk through the like consciousness of like going down there and like because obviously like I had known that it was kind of a nonchalant environment, but like you're just on like my word, and you're going down and meeting these people in a foreign environment with like pretty crazy track records. Like, walk through your consciousness and how your mind was and your emotions were like going down there and first and then how that progressed.
Cillian Dunne:Yeah, I well, when I went down there the first time, you weren't there. You were right, you were in the US, like on projects, right? So I went down there like not knowing anyone, and it was really funny. I uh I was super nervous. I like, you know, I I land and I'm texting Jose on WhatsApp, and then he's like, Come to my apartment, I'll I'll give you like the company debit card or whatever, and then like go to the hotel. But and I get to Jose's apartment, it's like 9 p.m. and he's like super tired. He had just driven from Petacea. And uh the first he doesn't even say hi to me. The first thing he says to me is like, I just drove six hours to meet you. And I was like, Oh, well, thank you. Uh like it's really nice to meet you, and and I was really nervous, and then uh he was like, you know, go to the hotel, get some sleep, like we're gonna be up early tomorrow. And then, like, sure enough, at like 6 30 in the morning, he calls me. He has a way of like creating anxiety that's like not necessary, yeah.
Jack Moran:But he'll like put the pressure on you.
Cillian Dunne:Dude, I was so anxious, I like didn't even sleep. I was like basically like waiting by my phone. I had like three alarms set, and then but then like you know, he calls me in the morning, I go back over to his place, expecting like you know, expecting like to the work to like really start right away, but it doesn't. It's like very social. Like you're drinking coffee, I meet the kids for the first time. Um, like it's obviously chaos in his apartment in the mornings, but then we go meet Carlos after that. Uh, and I'm sort of on my best behavior. I like I like kind of speak Spanish, like not that well. Uh, but Carlos uh meets Jose and I at at this restaurant, and uh and he's speaking like Spanglish that I can like kind of understand, but obviously all the important stuff he's saying to Jose in Spanish. So it was it was there was a lot of confusion. I was sort of just like going with the flow with the with the sort of understanding that eventually this would turn into something like that I would understand and and that I'd really be like like energized by. But the first like at least four days of me being in Panama, like I was terrified. I was so terrified. I'd I'd never been to like that part of the world before. Like I didn't know Jose, um, I didn't know like his kids, even though they were welcoming like right away. I was still sort of like on guard because and I write about it in the book like pretty early, but it's like you know, my under like the reason why I was going down to Panama was to interview all these people who were like involved in in a like a dictatorship, like a regime. So in my head, I'm going down there and like there's probably going to be some form of danger. Uh, but then as you know, as I meet all these people and you know introduced to like Edgar and like all of these all these guys that like Jose knows that are still very much like very connected down there, I'm like, oh, these are just like normal guys who like really like to have fun. And then I started having fun and and there was like a nice balance between like you know the serious like intense interviews with Carlos where I had to sort of like I had to be careful about what I said and and like how I contested them uh that balance with also like just straight up like partying and like guys who like when they party they they're only focused on partying and like it's just it's nothing but fun. So it was I mean it was awesome. Like it was for me that first trip felt like a once-in-a-lifetime experience, and then obviously as time progressed, like I just kept coming back, and and I think I said it to you in in September, but like now I whenever I feel like I'm sort of like in a rut here, like in the States, like work-wise, I kind of get the urge to go to Panama to like kick myself back into gear. Because for whatever reason, like it's not like I even like work crazy hard, like when I'm when I'm there, but it's always sort of like okay, like stop fucking around, like you need to get this done, so get it done, so then you can have fun. And for whatever reason, that just like it just hits me way more when I'm there as opposed to when I'm here, like if that makes sense.
Jack Moran:Yeah, that's kind of how it's always been for me. Like, it's just like a good reset. I think that number one, the biggest thing that I notice is the diet. Um, so just getting like cleaner organic food in you like really resets your body. Um, I think probably the heat, like you're really sweaty down there, so that like cleans out your body. And then also the the energy is there's a lot more optimistic people. You know, you'll see everywhere that people have a lot less than in the States, but for the most part, um, I would say they're on average probably happier. Um, so I think like a combination of that, and then also having Jose in his circle and his environment is a very like entrepreneurial get stuff done, like where's your mindset at? And I think that that, like a combination of all things, um yeah, does kind of like reframe you and set you back when you go back to the states, it like puts things into perspective. Um but what is it like as an investigative journalist um or an investigative writer? Um, you know, I think that my misconception was like this is kind of just like a business interaction where you go down and start interviewing this guy and he's gonna give you that information. But when you really think about it, obviously that's not the case. Like, no mat whether or not it was planned to write the book or not, like this person doesn't know you. He has to learn to trust you and how much information he's going to give you. And you're like starting to build that relationship and build that trust and build that empathy to get him to a point that he divulges intro information to you and feels comfortable with you and you know is sharing stories with you as if he was, you know, as if you were just another friend of his. So, what's kind of like that process like, and how do you go about that when you're in these positions interviewing someone that's high profile, like a Carlos Whitgreen, um, and getting them to open up with you? And and what was it like specifically in his situation?
Cillian Dunne:He it with with Carlos, it it very much he, you know, he always knew that he had the power. Um, like right from the get-go, he it was pretty obvious that you know he um he he wanted to to sort of control the situation that that um he wanted basically he wanted this book to be like his legacy. He knew that if he controlled the situation like the right way, that what I could end up like writing would would be something that would preserve his his legacy. Now, I I knew sort of that that was gonna be a problem, so I I didn't really I didn't like contest him very much in the beginning. I sort of just let him speak and and I kind of think of it as like a giant fish, like throwing like a giant fishing net into the ocean, like you're not really sure what you're gonna catch, but you're probably gonna catch like a lot of fish. Um and that was like the attitude in the beginning. As time goes on, he you know, and as sort of we get the less interesting stuff like out of the way, that's when that's when like the the stuff starts, that's when like the really interesting stuff starts to like seep through the cracks. And then when you get like a little taste of that, that's when I have the opportunity to like jump on it. So if for instance, if Carlos is like, you know, talking about something that's relatively mundane, like his friendship with Noriega, like if he's like he told me this one story that him and Noriega were uh in Uruguay, like at a at a party, right? At like a like a politician's party. And it was just, you know, it's a cool story, like they're drinking, they're like talking to girls and like having fun and and whatever. But then he like he's like, Oh, and this person was there, and then I'm like, in the back of my head, I'm like, oh, that's really interesting, because they were like the dictator of this country at during this year. So then I asked Carlos about that, and then all of a sudden, this whole like rabbit hole opens up and and you start going down it, and and everything feels like really organic. So I guess this is just a long way of saying that like a lot of the interview stuff really is conversational. Um, the trust, the trust comes like after after time. So, like the more time you spend together, the more you're naturally either gonna trust someone or distrust them. In the case with Carlos and I, like, I I really tried to make it known that uh like I was I was gonna write stuff that was like either the objective truth or or the truth as he saw it, but he also knew that I was gonna like that I was gonna speak to other people, you know. I I did speak to other people. I spoke to like people on the other side of the coin, like American soldiers, you know, American journalists, people like that. So he uh yeah, he understood that I was gonna like contest him in certain ways, but I think with Carlos, it was it was just he got all of his stories out like on the page on the page to me. He knew that I knew them. And then I would imagine that he was like waiting for me to write the book so that he could read it and see like if I if I really understood him, which you know, obviously he passed away like before the book came out, which is like nuts. But I you know, I trust I trust Jose's like understanding of Carlos and and like Noriega and like that that whole thing and and uh people seem to be pretty happy with the way that I you know that the way that I uh you know wrote his words and and wrote his story. So I'm not too concerned about it. But the trust like was there, but of course, like in the back of his head, he's like, if I tell this kid something that's you know uh that's like a little bit testy or like you know, maybe a little bit controversial, like there's a good chance that he'll put it in the books, so I might not do that. So that's why it was so important for you know those documents to sort of come into play and for me to interview other people. Do you think he willed withheld a lot or a little or like I think he withheld like a I think he withheld probably some pretty big stuff, if I'm being honest. I think uh he he definitely would have held back a couple things about Noriega, like for instance, there's these are just rumors, like they're not like you know, they they haven't been proven, but like there's a rumor that Noriega Noriega made all of his like close inner circle sort of give like blood oaths. He was like really into witchcraft, stuff like that. So if that was true, Carlos would have probably been one of those people, but he never like talked about that. I did ask about it and he sort of just brushed it off. He was like, That's fucking retarded, like you know, why why would he do that? Like he but he would do that. He'd if you if I said something, if I like if I asked him about like a rumor or a conspiracy, he'd be like, that's stupid, like why would Noriega do that? But then, you know, you've got these other sources like saying otherwise, but um he I'd say he withheld some really big stuff from me. He did say like I did I did always ask him about the major conspiracies and whatnot, but like I said, he would just brush them off and he did always say that he's like, Oh, Noriega went to the grave with like all of his biggest secrets and that w very much was a sentiment that like everybody shared. Even Jose.
Jack Moran:Um, so yeah, I mean Do you think that so you know when you ask someone a direct question and when they're trying to deceive you, you can kind of like feel that energy like they're lying? Yeah, like obviously, this guy's a trained intelligence guy, like he probably is a um a pretty good liar. Where you experiencing things that that you knew the answer to or knew that he was not telling you the truth, would you pick up those changes in his energy, or was he able to just like cold face tell you a lie and like it was indistinguishable?
Cillian Dunne:I think he could cold face do it. He had this um he he had this sort of ability to always to just to sort of always like connect with someone. You know, he uh he was one of those guys that like you meet them and you just sort of like instantly like them. Yeah, they're like very like you met him, like he's a very like likable guy. Pretty unsuspecting. Yeah, exactly, very unsuspecting. And he but he he did this, like you you'd look at his face while he's telling you a story, and he'd have this big smile on his face, and then all of a sudden it would go like BAM, and he'd be super sharp and really serious, and like you you would not like you wouldn't fuck with him like uh like normally, um but when he's like telling you a story and then he just like flips a switch like that and he becomes like very serious, like it's really hard to tell, it's really hard to tell like what is sort of embellished and what isn't because I did contest him on a lot of stuff, like if he if he told me a story and then I'd be like, but yesterday you told me uh a similar story, but it doesn't like exactly line up, he'd he'd always have an answer for you, and it it was there was never any hesitation. It was always like a really logical answer. So I think I mean yeah, I do think he was like a master liar a hundred percent. You know, he was trained to do that, but um, but I think that just naturally like he was an older man, like I think he might remember things like slightly differently than than how they actually played out. I don't think that's like you know, I don't think he does it intentionally. I just think that you know he might remember things subjectively as opposed to objectively, which I think that's probably like a normal thing, right? I don't know if anybody can really remember things exactly how they went down. Yeah, um, so yeah, but he uh super, I mean hyper intelligent, like he he could really like pick you apart, uh, and like if if there was ever any like hesitation in my questioning, he would just attack me, right? He'd he'd be like, what the hell are you talking about? Like that's so stupid. And then like he would make me feel like shitty for asking the question. Like that was sort of a tactic that he would use, but um, but yeah, I it's it's really hard to tell uh what he held back because nobody could like fill in those gaps for me because he was like that high up and he was one of the only people that was like really close to that whole situation.
Jack Moran:What were the things that you thought would trigger him to get into that like locked-in state? And then also like how would you describe his like skill set or his personality?
Cillian Dunne:Like to get him locked in.
Jack Moran:Well, we we drank a loss. Uh you know how you said he has that shift? Yeah, yeah, like what was causing that? Was it like traumatic events or like like PTSD, or like he knew he had to be sharp so he didn't give up information?
Cillian Dunne:Like, I think it was more like a storytelling technique of his where he was like, he was getting like he was a he was very like sort of poetic. Like I, you know, like I said, like I don't speak Spanish incredibly well, but I had Diego there too, and he was sort of translating everything that he was he was saying. But the things I did understand as well, like I I could tell that he was using like a lot of metaphors, and he he wasn't he was very lyrical, like he wasn't saying things directly to me. So every time I asked him a question, he was like very much telling a story, right? And you could see that in his face, like when he would become really serious, and then he would like start smiling, like nothing was ever very like up, nothing was ever very like sort of upfront and and just straightforward. It was it was always like it was always a story, right? Um the techniques that I would use to to get him there were you know they they were very much just based on the fact that like I just wanted it to be a conversation. I didn't want him to feel interrogated because if he did then you know he easily could have just said like fuck you and like walked away, or he could have like called Jose and been like, What's this kid's deal? Like, what is this? You know, you're trying to like what are you trying to do here? So I really just like let it like wash over me at first. As I got more confident and as like he was telling me these stories, like yeah, I would I would like listen closely and then I would I would never want it to feel like I was like stopping a conversation if I asked like a question or if I was contesting them, I would want it to like build on a point as opposed to like stopping us in our tracks and like keeping us in one position. I'd always want to like keep the conversation moving, like even if it's zigzagged or we go off on tangents, like there always have to had to be like movement in the conversation, and we always had to be going somewhere. So I would plan beforehand and I'd be like, okay, by the end of this day, like I want to understand this one topic. So Carlos starts telling me a story about something that's way over here, and I have to figure out how to get over here. So I just sort of ask him like leading questions or or whatnot to like get to that point, if that makes sense. I know that's that's probably like a that that might be like a little conf confusing. It's just how I like visualize it. But uh, but I I never wanted to like piss him off. That was like the most important thing, and I just like did what I could to get from here where he would begin to here where I I knew I needed to be, because I would build out timelines and I would like put these like pins in this in the timeline and be like, okay, in this year this happened, and this year this happened, like why did this happen then? Why did this happen then? Like what happened leading up to this? And I'd I'd like just use his story to like try get there.
Jack Moran:So, how would you just if you were describing Carlos, like how would you describe his skill set? Like, what distinguishes him as a person? Like, what is he really good at? Um, you know, obviously you said he's well trained in X, Y, and Z. What are those things?
Cillian Dunne:He can read people really well. Um, he he reads body language especially well. So there was like a language barrier, even though I think he did speak English and he just did that sort of classic like Latin American spite. I don't it's not even just a Latin American technique, but like that that sort of uh foreign technique that a lot of um you know people have used in in uh non-English speaking countries to spy on English speaking people. I think he he did understand English like possibly fluently and he could sort of like understand me all the time, but he pretended like he didn't. But he was super sharp uh with body language, um, aside from that fact. He he knew when people were like a little bit nervous, he he sort of just always knew how to act. Uh one thing that I picked up on pretty early was that you know he never let you walk behind him, he always had to be walking behind you because there was probably an element of distrust from his like many years of service as as like a spy or as like an intelligence asset. So there were like little things like that that I picked up, but he um I would say that he he's a guy who was sort of he's blindly loyal but with a one-strike policy, you know. I think blind I think blind loyalty because I don't he didn't tell me that directly. Obviously, I I don't think he would have, but his children told me that, right? And they were like he he was sort of like a blindly loyal guy, and some you know, a couple of his children, I I won't say which ones, but they were like they were like, you know, we we didn't really like the fact that he was so close to Noriega and that he was so loyal to Noriega, you know, we we think that like he was taken advantage of in some ways, and you know, not that I even heard any of those stories or or or whatever, but I I can see that, you know, because he really did, he trusted first, but I know that if you crossed him, he it was one strike, like and and you would have like an enemy, yeah. You know, so I don't know what you would call a guy like that. Um, you know, very shoot from the hip. He's a guy who like shot from the hip, that kind of thing.
Jack Moran:He's like animalistic, almost very instinctual.
Cillian Dunne:Instinctual, yeah.
Jack Moran:Um, do you think that he like interacting with him had an influence on your life or like your perspective of the world?
Cillian Dunne:Definitely. Yeah, I I have not seen the world like the same way whatsoever um since doing this whole project. The timing was especially relevant given like the the stuff with Maduro that happened like last week. Um, you know, you you if I hadn't written this book, I would have like watched the news and sort of been I I would have been like skeptical of the narrative like that, you know, Maduro was this like drug trafficker and and all of this sort of stuff. Uh but I would have like sort of believed I would have believed like the American narrative more than I would have like the I guess like the Venezuelan narrative or or the um anti-colonialist narrative, whatever you want to call it. But um I uh after reading the book and as I'm like watching the news and or after writing the book and after like seeing the news and stuff, I'm just like sort of just like seeing like similarities with Noriega and and seeing how like all the stuff really is cyclical, like in US foreign policy and and politics, like just it's it turns out it's just super common to place a label on either a person or a nation that you want something from and use that as like a justifying and use it as a justification to to go in and sort of do what you want. Um, so I don't think I would have fully understood understood that if I hadn't like met Carlos and interviewed him and done this whole thing. Um basically trying to say that everything that I thought I knew about US foreign policy or the or the world and how like world politics works was just like very much off base uh in terms of how like it actually works operates.
Jack Moran:Well, how do you, if you had to like describe it, what is your viewpoint of how those like international, you know, international policy policies work?
Cillian Dunne:This might be, yeah, this this might be this might also still be off base. I don't claim to be an expert, but I think a lot of a lot of the world's a lot of these like macro problem or problems that people see as like macro, these like giant problems, really do boil down to just like individual people that are either in debt to one another or want something from one another, and it's all just about like what those people will do and what they have at their disposal to get it, if that makes sense.
Jack Moran:So, like what give an example.
Cillian Dunne:I don't know, like I like I said, like I I can't claim to be an expert, but we'll use like Maduro as an example. Like, I it's like all about leverage, yeah. I bet in like 10 or 15 years, like a bunch of shit's gonna be released about like what actually happened in Venezuela, you know what I mean? Like right now, what we're being told is Maduro's uh uh aiding drug trafficking, he's benefiting from it. You know, we're seeing all those videos of like pangas being blown up in in the Caribbean, and and you know, we're seeing like now Trump is saying like he's the acting president of of Venezuela and like whatever. And Venezuelan people seem to be pretty happy that like Maduro's gone, but you know, undoubtedly in 10 or 15 years we're gonna hear reports and be like, oh, it turns out like Maduro's right-hand man was actually working for the CIA the whole time, and you know, it turned turns out he wanted to become the president of you know, or it turns out he wanted this from like the oil companies of Venice. Like, I don't I don't know what these like facts are, but you know, you it's there's always more than meets. Yeah, it's part of like the cyclical thing, and I think like these really big macro problems do boil down to like individuals, but obviously there's like the China and Russia thing too, which is like that's more like ideological and and gr on like on a on a grand scale, that's like a huge thing, so that that contradicts my point a little bit, but I think a lot of decision, a lot of like major uh international decisions are are made on a micro level, and I think and I think it really just boils down to like individual people. Like with Noriega and and the US invasion of Panama, I fully believe that like a huge reason why the US invaded Panama was just because George H.W. Bush like fucking hated Noriega. Like Noriega really pissed him off, and yeah, there was probably some like blackmail aspects there that Noriega might have had like info on maybe not Bush, but like on people in the CIA or US politicians.
Jack Moran:I'm sure he did, because he did he did do that, he liked blackmail, but um but that was like a you know a militar a US military invasion with 27,000 troops and it was like this big deal and the media talked about it, but you know, in reality it probably really was just like you know an issue between like individuals, and it could have just as easily been some other area, you know, it just happened to be on his consciousness, and so like that perpetuated itself where he was paying more attention to it, seeing like the um resources that they had and like the the vested interest that the US has, just from him like you know, stemming from that disrespect or whatever, it just is like that squeaky wheel guts the grease, and now all that attention is devoted to that. And so it's like I guess what you're saying, like how it could stem from that individual relationship. Um and like what annoys me is I see like everyone has their like comments on politics, and I think that a lot of people get caught up in the weeds of like the propaganda machine that is the news, but and they get like really emotionally involved in it, where at the end of the day, these countries are just like large businesses, and like the largest companies or countries with the largest GDPs are the biggest comp uh companies with the most leverage, and they're making deals across the country to get more leverage and get more power and get more revenue. And I think that the more people start understanding, and that's another thing is like, you know, you hear people talk about politics and like how different policies should be like relayed onto businesses, but they don't understand how business actually works. And so it's like as a business owner, you're like, okay, that policy wouldn't uh like affect this business the way that you think it would, or affect its employee employees the way that you think it would. It's the exact same thing with a country as it is when you think of the country as just a super large business, it's and the people of that country are its employees almost because they're the ones the taxpayers providing the revenue, and there's a number of different models. Some are communists, some are you know free capital markets. But when you start to look at it like a business, I think it removes a lot of that emotion, and you see that like all of these decisions are at the end of the day just coming down to money. Like, yeah, like Venezuela, like you can get into like, like, I don't really think that the US is like compassionate about drug smuggling. I think that if there was a vested interest in them making money off drug smuggling, um, that they would participate in it. But I think that number one, you have this perception of drug smuggling, which would have a backlash if they did participate on it. So then they're gonna look at the long term of that, like, okay, we can't participate in this and make money because it will lose us money and lose us trust from other people. So they're making a business decision there. Um, and you look at like, you know, to go further on the drug point, like at one point, weed was this like massively taboo substance, and now the the government's like taxing it. Um, so I think at the end of the day, it all just comes down to money with these decisions. Like they're they're they're not, it's not like they're compassionate about the yeah, again, the drugs, they're utilizing that as a political vehicle to be able to go in and get trillions of dollars of oil. Yeah, same thing with like the Middle East, like with Iraq and Halliburton and um yeah, Dick Cheney, it was like terrorism is this like massive problem, but like he's getting the contracts for Halliburton and taking the kickback on the money. Yeah. So, you know, you can always say, like, just follow the money and you'll find like, you know, the cause. But I think that if people could remove themselves um emotionally and see that all of these things are just like business transactions, and you can't, just to kind of wrap this point up, but I don't think you can hold it against these like politicians for being um like getting money for themselves or being corrupt, you know, like at the end of the day, they're just serving themselves like everyone else does. And I think that when you look at some politicians, we have to realize that they have their own leverage that they're gonna use. The country as a whole has leverage that it's gonna use on Venezuela, just as much as the people have leverage against the government that we need to get better at utilizing and being more of a business and like, or being a union under a business that has leverage with the corporation holders. Um and when we look at politicians, it's not like okay, this person's making money for themselves, but it's like, is this person making money for themselves and giving us some sort of kickback? Are we benefiting from this? Like, that's a fair deal. And if not, you have to exhaust your leverage on that politician to get a fair deal, just like those politicians are exhausting their leverage on other countries with tariffs and whatnot to get better deals. So that's kind of how I think about it. If that, I mean, obviously that was a really long grant.
Cillian Dunne:No, no, I think I mean uh it's like it all makes sense. And we've kind of, I mean, you've seen it more than I have, like being sort of in Jose's like inner circle and meeting like politicians in, like you said, Florida and and Panama and stuff, but you've seen it like with your own eyes, how like really large deals are oftentimes just made with like a handshake, like between two individuals.
Jack Moran:Yeah, it's not like in these meetings, nobody's talking about like solving world peace or like democracy and like you know, they're not talking Republican and Democrat. It's just like, okay, what's the plan? You know, how much money can I make off of this? Yeah. Like, how are my voters gonna be impacted by this? Because at the end of the day, like if you look at these politicians, they're they're just saying exactly what they have to say. Like they're they're not speaking their own ideas. And I think that's what was kind of different about Trump is like he's like unable to not speak exactly what he's thinking and why people liked him. But a lot of times, like these politicians are just like talking heads, and they have a team that is surveying their voter voter base to find out what they want, and then they're just regurgitating that to them so that those people vote for them. And then once they're in office, they're just doing deals with their people that they owe money to that have leverage on them because they donated to their campaign or so on and so forth. And then at a certain point, you have to give like some amount back to the voters because if not, then you'll lose trust with them and you won't get reelected. So it's kind of this like balancing act of like, how can I just at the end of the day, everyone's just serving themselves? So it's like, how can I reap as much as possible without taking too much that people start turning on me and then I'm not in this position anymore? Yeah. Yeah.
Cillian Dunne:It's that I mean, it's that that's like high level critical thought as well. Like I feel Like most people wouldn't wouldn't think like that whatsoever. They sort of just see see, I don't want to say like they see government as like this two-dimensional thing, but it's like, you know, they you're right, it's it's just a business.
Jack Moran:Yeah, and they're like government, but it's like you're and it's it's correct. Like it is those just individual pers people. Like in this relationship, you know, 10 different deals could come out of it, but you know, it's not like the government as a whole. You it's the system that's made up of these individuals that are self-serving that is creating like the corruption and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And it's at the end of the day, if you want to stop that or slow that pace down, the people have to realize their leverage that they have and exercise it to get better deals for themselves. And that's what we're not doing, is we're just like getting caught up in the propaganda machine and watching it almost like a reality show and screaming at the side that you hate and siding with the side that you like and doing very little while those people are putting out that information so that you just sit in your chair and get angry and you're not really like exercise your leverage, and therefore, like they just have free will to do whatever they want, and the people like they don't get a fair deal. Like, you're just getting you're you're getting walked over because you're not exercising your leverage, which we have huge leverage, yeah. You know, yeah, definitely, dude. I mean, I'm ranting, but no, no, it all makes sense. So, what um what is kind of like and I wanted to go into this. We had a conversation that I found super interesting when we were in Panama. We went for that like super long walk. I think we walked down to Costco or whatever, but you were talking about the kind of mechanics of conveying a story. Oh, yeah. Which I remember this, which I found to be very interesting because like you don't really think about it from the writer's perspective, or like when you're watching a movie or like when you're reading a story, you're just captivated by it, but you have a very like specific mission, or a it could be one um sentence or one statement that you're trying to communicate to the audience and you're doing it through these, you know, this methodology of telling a story. Yeah. Um so walk me through that a little bit.
Cillian Dunne:I remember this really well, actually. It's like the wheel, the wheel analogy that I that I gave you. Yeah, I I so I I sort of see like uh, you know, if I'm going through a story, like let's say I'll I'll talk about it like chapter by chapter. Let's say like chapter one, I want to establish the protagonist, like what he's all about or she, what he or she is all about, um, you know, what this what the story is gonna be, set up the plot, like all that sort of stuff. Like I've got this very clear goal for chapter one, and the ultimate, you know, the umbrella like ultimately comes what what it ultimately uh is all about is is will the reader read all the way through chapter one and then want to read into chapter two and and keep turning pages. So I kind of see if I'm telling someone else a story, I see like that chapter is like an empty wheel, like an empty circle. And it's my job to like shade that in as much as possible, right? So if it's like a bike wheel, there's the circle on the outside, and then there's like the nucleus in the middle, right? And I always place my what whatever I understand the most about that person um becomes the nucleus. So when it came to like Carlos, I and this isn't something that like I can say I personally understood, but what I am interested in is is like revolutionary stuff, because like Ireland is quite a like revolutionary country. We had you know, we were oppressed by like Britain for hundreds of years, and you know, we had like our big revolution a hundred years ago, and it's something that like we study in schools, and we we it's very much like embedded in us that uh that we understand our revolutionary history. So when it came to Carlos, that's let's say like that was my nucleus, and that was my like firm understanding of like what he was saying. So I would like root my understanding of his stories in that in that mindset. Now, how I shade in the rest of that wheel is using like the spokes, right? So the the spokes jut out from my nucleus of understanding and they're connected to the to the outside circle to the wheel. And the more spokes of understanding that I have, the more I shade in that wheel, and the more complete the sort of story will be, if this makes sense. Very interesting. So those spokes, they can be thin or they can be thick. I'll say like the thin ones would be like me asking Carlos like bullshit questions, like, oh, like what's your favorite food? What's your favorite Panamanian food? Like, what do you like to drink? Like when you were 18 years old, like what part of town would you party in? Right? Those are very like thin spokes. They don't actually do that much for the overall story. But that, you know, that still, you know, helps me shade in the circle. But then there are these like larger spokes. I'd be like, How you know, what happened in behind closed doors with like Noriega and Bush? Like, you know, when the Iran Contra affair happened, like with the you know, of the Sandinisis and the Contras, like tell me about that, like behind closed doors, like what were you doing? And those spokes are a little bit wider, right? They shade in that circle like a little bit more of my overall understanding of Carlos and the topic. So it's sort of like, you know, you you could probably like use anything uh to make this analogy, but I like to use like that circle because I always have like that nucleus in in everything that I I sort of do when it comes to me like interviewing people for books. Um, no matter what, there has to be like a bridge between like our two personalities. Like, if I'm interviewing someone who and we have like literally zero in common, like I can't write their story, like I just don't understand them. Carlos is a guy that we are from two different eras, two different places, two completely different kinds of guys. But I used that one like little bridge of just something that was like an interest for me, and I knew it was an interest for him, and that's how we sort of connected, and then from there I was able to shade in the rest of that wheel, and then you know, the stronger the wheel, the better it it runs and it doesn't break as easily. And you know, for instance, if if I tried shading in that wheel, but I only had like 50 thin spokes, the story's gonna be dog shit, it's gonna break apart, it's gonna fall under the weight of itself. But if I shade in that wheel and I've got these really strong spokes, and there's like very little, you know, space for like uh plot holes for like you know air to get through, then you know the wheel's gonna it's gonna be stable, it's gonna like run just fine, it's not gonna crumble under the weight of like the overall topic or the story. So I don't know. I sound now that I say that again, I sound kind of kooky. It it sounded so eloquent when I said it. No, it makes a lot of sense.
Jack Moran:But um what so how do you like when you are telling someone else a story? Obviously, if you're just like writing your own like fiction book, like you're telling your story and it doesn't really matter the direction that it goes because it's coming from your consciousness, but how do you, if you're telling something that you're trying to get someone to step, and I guess it could kind of happen if you were doing a narrative as well, but how do you get someone to how do you as the writer step into Carlos's consciousness and write it so that it feels for the audience like they're in that time period and it's not just coming through your lens like it's coming through their lens? Like, do you have to like do you feel yourself kind of starting to get engulfed in their thought processes?
Cillian Dunne:And like, yeah, definitely. I it's it's sort of it's something that like it wasn't really wasn't necessarily like a learned skill for me. It's just like a it's something that I'm I'm very like thankful I can do, but I I pay extra special attention to the way somebody speaks and and then from there I I make you know you're basically making assumptions about the way that they think, but you can you can notice trends and like things that they say and stuff like that. But what it really is is just like a hyper focus on on the way somebody speaks and the way they they act and operate, and hopefully you understand the way they think. So part of that is just like spending a lot of time with the guy and and literally just observing them. But I record all the interviews, so after like let's say I interview Carlos for like three or four hours, um, I'll go back and listen to those three or four hours either that night or like the next day or my next available, and I'll like straight up just focus on like the cadence, the way he like, the way in which he speaks, like if he takes breaks between saying certain words, like things of that nature. And then from there, I just I just sort of I try to get myself really confident and and uh and secure in the way that I'm I'm telling Carlos's story from his perspective, and I just go for it. Um I go for it and I just I feel confident that I'm like actively portraying Carlos the way that he would portray himself. There's obviously going to be gaps there, you know. I I could write a sentence that Carlos could read and be like, I would never, I would never think this, or I would never say this, but I I just try my best to use words that he uses all the time, or I try my best to to um to I guess like think in trends, like Carlos would often, you know, Carlos would never he rarely like theorize things, he would sort of just say it how it is, and that's it, you know. He was very, he would tell these like very lyrical poetic stories, but he wouldn't say a a word more than he would need to say, you know, he would say what he has to say and then stop. So that's how I would like that's how I would like write him in the book. I would I would have a thought and then or like Carlos would have a thought, he would say what he would need to say, then he'd stop, and then he'd move on to the next thing. You know, he would never like linger on something too long.
Jack Moran:Yeah, so obviously when you go into like any of these interviews or meeting a person, whether it's you know, you're a writer or just having a human interaction, you're going to have like your own perception or your frame on that person. Um and do you ever find yourself like getting into a situation where something that they say kind of like reframes your entire perception of that person and you realize like, okay, I was seeing it at face value, like you know, maybe it's Carlos lying, you know, and and you're basing your perception off of what he's telling you, but then you realize by like overlaying these facts that what he's telling you isn't true, so then it reframes that reality that, like, okay, from now on moving forward, like what he says isn't doesn't necessarily have to be true. Like, do you get what I'm saying? Like, yeah, you walk in with that perception and and you're taking it as face value, but then over time you kind of step into his mind.
Cillian Dunne:Yeah, you get what I'm saying? No, I do, yeah. And that's that's sort of how like an unreliable narrator works in in uh like literature or in in yeah, non-fiction, fiction, whatever. Um, but Carlos was very much like an unreliable narrator, right? He he because he would lie to me, or he would like actively withhold certain information from me. So it's important for me when writing Carlos in the book to sort of give off the vibe that he is an unreliable narrator so that the audience can feel the way that I felt when I was interviewing him, if that makes sense. So yeah, like you said, like you and that's how you realize too when someone says, you know, like you tell me something yesterday, and then today you're you're telling me the same story, but all the facts aren't lining up. Instead of me calling you out, it's it's you know, it's better for me to keep it in the back of my head. It's like, okay, you know, Jack lies. Yeah, but why is he lying is the thing. Like, is he trying to is he lying to like protect himself or is he lying to protect you know Noriega or or whatever? It's uh it it that's where like the investigative stuff like actually comes in. Like me sitting down with Carlos and and recording a story isn't it is investigative, but it's it's really more conversational. Like that the investigator the investigation comes in when there are like gaps in stories, and I'm like, okay, I have to fill that gap somehow. I gotta go find like the answer, and and that's when I like take what Carlos says and I and I go out out into the world and and sort of just like see where I can find the information that will hopefully bridge this story together. And to be fair to Carlos, like I was able to do that with most of what he said. I mean, he did say some wacky stuff, who knows if it's true or not? I put some of it in the book, I decided not to put some of it in the book, but um, but yeah, I mean that's just bridging, you know, bridging what he says versus what he doesn't say, and and hopefully arriving at like some form of objective truth.
Jack Moran:So when you when you're describing this like wheel in the spokes, is that like a common storytelling practice, or is that like your style of storytelling? Um I don't know.
Cillian Dunne:I've never bothered to to look, and it's it's just that's just how I like visualize it as well. You know, I it might like someone might hear that and be like, this kid's like retarded. Like that just doesn't make sense. But to me it does, like it really is just like it's just like, or you could even say it's like paint by numbers, right? It's like you know that when you cut you know, uh colour in like all the little numbers in the shade, and like you add the different shades and whatever, like you know that the finished product is going to be like this this picture, this painting that like makes sense. All the colours are there, like all the detail is there, like you you know what it is, but um, but like you still have to get there. So like you could use that analogy too. It's like your every question you ask Carlos his answer is like painting in another number, and and after you ask him enough questions, then you've painted in all the numbers, and you have this this beautiful picture that like tells the exact story that you need to tell. But I like to use like the wheel thing because I I don't think it's possible to paint every number, you know what I mean? I don't think it's possible to get through everything. I think there's always going to be little cracks. I think like people's motivations are more complex than even they understand themselves. Um, and I think that the the wheel spoke for me it works because that nucleus of understanding right in the middle, that's where like I guess like the stability will come from, and then the spokes are just like the strength of knowledge that that holds the whole topic together. I don't know. Does that make sense?
Jack Moran:Yeah, and you would kind of explain to me too, like how you have to engage that audience like very, very quickly, and then kind of like hold them on until the climax. Yeah. Um is that like, and and I'll let you describe that better than I just did, but um, is that basically how all writers or all storytellers, like, is that the framework for telling a story, or are there different, are you aware of different writers that have different styles for conveying that same message um um but with different structures?
Cillian Dunne:Yeah, I I don't know. It's you know, all writers have to like learn how to hook the audience like right away. It's like a thing, it's a thing nowadays that I'm seeing more and more of like in in like literature and with like I do like script writing as well and in like film and TV, it's it's like a it's like a thing that you have to have something happen right away, otherwise people are just gonna like throw the script away or throw the book away. So a lot of people look for immediate action. Um I sometimes do that, but with Carlos, the immediate action or like the immediate hook is establishing the stakes of the story. So I established like massive geopolitical stakes, and I established personal stakes right away. The personal stakes were for both me and for Carlos. So the personal stakes for me were way more like simple and understanding, and the average reader can, you know, step into the book and put themselves in my shoes. Like they don't know, like especially if someone knows nothing about Noriega or the Cold War or like you know geopolitics in Latin America, like they're stepping into my shoes and they're learning as I learn, as me the narrator, and the chapters where I'm the narrator. And then when Carlos is the narrator, the stakes are much more like the stakes are they're a little bit harder for for someone to like step into Carlos's shoes, but the stakes for Carlos are like death, exile, you know, losing family and friends, or losing, you know, Noriega, and those stakes are also understandable. And then uh the the grand stakes are like the stakes for Panama as a nation, or like you know, if uh like uh for instance after the Panama Canal Treaty is signed in in the book, like the National Guard are like walking on eggshells because if there's any anything that happens on the canal, then the US troops can come back in, and the Panama Canal Treaty is essentially wiped, like those are like big geopolitical stakes. So the sooner you establish the severity of of the stakes and letting the audience know that, like, hey, if this happens, this is what will happen to the characters that you know you're gonna end up like being interested in, then they're gonna be like more inclined to read on. And I use like I like to use like mystery and thriller techniques like cliffhangers and stuff like that to get people to turn the page. Some writers like to be like super detailed and and like uh spend like pages and pages and pages like describing like the setting and whatnot, and different readers respond to different things, but I like to tap into like paranoia, mystery, and then like basically anything that falls under like the umbrella of like being thrilled, if that makes sense. And that all comes back to like just establishing the stakes of the story like right away.
Jack Moran:What um what was I gonna ask? Um, I just had a hot question. Um yeah, going back to because we had we had talked about with like Jose, like these different writers. Um who's the one who did the stuff down in Cuba? Jose's writer. Like Costcher? No. Not Costcher? No, the uh Oh Hemingway. Yeah, Hemingway. Yeah, oh yeah, so how are like I kind of want to just like tap into like that consciousness, and like I know you've paid like a lot of attention to different films and you know, since we were young kids, you've been like super into film. How has do you think like the artist changed from then till now?
Cillian Dunne:Oh, I don't know. I well I could say I could say for me, I I used to like really romanticize it like riding quite a bit when I was younger. Like you look at guys like Hemingway and like Jose's favorites, like F Scott Fitzgerald and like Hemingway, and and those are like some really big names, but you know, you you learn a little bit about their life, and you're like, wow, like Hemingway lived in Cuba and he ran guns for like Castro, and then he was in like Key West, and like he you know lived in this like shack where like all these cats would like come and go, and and there's like a there's like a romanticism sort of like around around the stories like of how these writers like would live and like how they would like practice their art like while also experiencing life. When I was younger, I I very much like spent a lot of time just like sitting in front of the computer, like writing and trying to like perfect my craft and like obviously using people. Like that as inspiration and being like, I want to be like those guys one day. But then, you know, as I get a little bit older, I'm like, you know, I'm sort of my writing like plateaus, and I'm like, my writing is plateauing because I'm not really going out there and like experiencing life the way it should be experienced. Interesting. So then there's like then it becomes almost like a con you're like consciously trying to balance your life between this, like if you think in fiction, you know what I mean, which like Jose talks about like thinking in fiction quite a bit. Like he he makes like a really cool point about he's like everyone is just sort of like telling, actively telling their own stories, like you can go whatever way you want, and that's how your story will go. So it's interesting when you look at it like that, but then they're but then like the beauty of life like really does come from like really organic moments that are just like in that are just at the end of the day like human and simple. So you have I have this like conscious balance between the two where I'm like, okay, I will get wrapped up in my own sort of world and like write these stories, but then I need to like really set time aside for myself to like not think about all that, like not think about writing or not think about like being fulfilled by like being an artist or whatever, and and literally just experience life, like hang out with my friends, like drink beers, like go, you know, hang out with my girlfriend, go to dinner, like you know, do do like normal shit that that normal people do because that's where the inspiration comes from. That is where the inspiration comes from. And you look at like a writer like Bukowski, right? He he um he really was just like a normal dude, you know what I mean? Uh up until he got like I think it was the post the post office was the book that he wrote where like he wrote it about working in a post office and then it it just like took off and people really responded well to it. But that just came from sort of like uh the I guess like living like a normal life, but having that ability to like step out of that normal life and and sort of analyze it and and romanticize it a little bit, even though that that wasn't necessarily romanticization. But if that makes sense, I like I just try to balance like living like just like really experiencing life and not even like thinking about stories and writing, and then being able to like jump back into that other mindset and being like, okay, like you know, I do want to be like these guys and I do want to write these stories and and and to and to kind of segue from that, like you have now experienced being an artist and like going through that like Hollywood process and like trying to like you know make a name for yourself in LA.
Jack Moran:And like I'm curious how like what that's like. Um what that process like, what's the business of it like? How do you get ahead? Where have you found the pitfalls? Um, like what's kind of the taboo behind it? Is it different than it was before? You know?
Cillian Dunne:Yeah, I I I'm really like I haven't like made it yet. Uh so there's definitely more like trials and tribulations to come, but I think just I mean, saying yes to opportunity has like gotten me further than anything else. Like, I'll put it this way, when you called me about like the Panama about the right hand man, October 2023, like before that, I I was writing like every day, I was writing books, I was writing screenplays. I I wasn't afraid to like send those to people and be like, hey, can you read this? Or you know, hey, I just wrote this book, like I think you'd really enjoy it. It just I like I I was always gonna do it, but I think like the Panama thing changed me a little bit because I said yes, like a really big opportunity, and then I started to see like the benefit of just simply saying yes and like stepping into something that you might like stepping out of your comfort zone and into something you might not understand. So I don't think Hollywood is like the kind of like the film industry or whatever is the kind of thing where like there's like a right answer, like everybody sort of like goes down this one path. It's not like accounting where it's like you know, you're like an intern and then you get like a full-time job and you're like an analyst and then you're this and then you're this, yeah, but it's not like that at all, and obviously that's the same with like being an entrepreneur. There's like a billion different like routes that you can go down, but you can kind of go down any route and still potentially be successful. I think with writing, it's just about like saying yes to all opportunities or the ones that like make the most sense, and then as like an artist, uh it's important to also think about like the money too, you know what I mean? Because it's like we don't live in this like cotton candy kingdom where anybody can just do whatever they want and like live their life, like you still gotta pay bills. So I learned that the hard way. It's like, yeah, like I love writing like more than anything, and I'm gonna write stories for the rest of my life, and that's what I want, but like I can't do that if I'm living on the street and like you know, homeless and whatever. So I had to find a way to use like my skills to make money and satisfy that like creative urge. So um, so I think right now I just want to find like the best possible stories that I can like slap my name onto, and then in my pursuit of those goals, of those really big goals, where like I'm getting these books out there, hopefully make some money along the way and like pick up new skills and maybe be introduced to a world that I didn't know anything about. And I do that by like ghostwriting or like picking up these like little gigs where I'll um you know just try something out just for the fuck of it, you know what I mean. I did like legal writing for a little bit, sort of like paralegal work. You know, I'd never went to law school or anything like that. I was just a good writer who made kind of friends with like a couple lawyers who were like, I don't want to write all this shit. Like, do you want to ghostwrite it for me? And I'll just like check it and make sure it's all okay. And that's how I made money for a little bit. And then I started learning about like the legal system and introduced to attorneys and you know, hearing jud how judges speak and all that, and what might not seem as something that really matters, then might matter in a couple years from now. Let's say, like, let's say I come across this like really awesome uh like courtroom drama story about this like amazing court case. I now have the understanding of how that all works from behind the scenes because I like kind of I I did I was paid to do that work like in pursuit of my of my overall goals. So I don't know, I I think uh if that makes sense, like it's it's like uh it's like that, it all comes back to that. Like, what's that saying? It's like it's not about the goal itself, it's about like the pursuit of the goal where like you find your meaning. So I think yeah, my goal is still to you know have all these books and stories like adapted into these like awesome movies because that's what I love the most. But I'm in less of a rush now to get there than I was early in my joy. Early 20s. I'm just trying to enjoy it and have fun and like you know, live live that life, that like organic life, while still like having those like romanticized dreams and yeah, and like you said, all those experiences like become exactly what you need to get to those goals.
Jack Moran:So, like you just have to go through it and put yourself into it, and like every failure, every tough situation, every great situation just becomes like another brick in that journey that you're you're doing. Um what would you say now, like going through you know the movie game and the writing game would be like a warning that you would give yourself um um five years ago or six whenever you started this out?
Cillian Dunne:Oh like what patterns have you kind of recognized that you're like if uh if you if you write like a like a book or a script or a short story, like whatever it is, if you if you start something and finish it to completion and and people don't like it or people aren't like really all over it, uh just move to the next thing. Because that that's the advice like I would give is just like uh and this advice was given to me, I just didn't fully understand it. This was actually given to me by um uh John Spates, the guy who wrote Dune, the Dune movies. I met him at a hotel through like a like a family friend of mine who's friends with his wife, and he told me and my buddy Leem, he's like, he's like, scripts are like Victorian children. He's like, you're gonna have a lot of them, but like they're not all gonna make it.
Jack Moran:That's hilarious.
Cillian Dunne:It was so funny, and I just never forgot it. He was such a nice guy, and uh, and I was like, wow, okay, uh, like you know, good to know, but I I didn't like really get it until I started like writing a ton of scripts and like giving them to people, and then being like, Oh, like, you know, good job, buddy, like you know, give me like a little pat on the back. But it it never I was never taken seriously until I like just churned out a bunch of them, got way better, and then all of a sudden I have this like one script that that people really take to, and then you can tell when somebody actually likes something and actually takes it seriously versus them sort of just like appeasing, like appeasing you. Uh so yeah, I'd give the advice of just like if you're like a young writer, um don't be afraid to to write like a a shitload of stories, because even if like your earlier ones are not well received at the time, you'll write like a few more stories and then you can always go back to it, make little changes now that you're like a better writer and more mature, and then you can give that to people again and they might see it differently.
Jack Moran:Yeah, good advice. Yeah. You've obviously been on like a bunch of different podcasts now, and you've been promoting the right hand man. Um what? How can I explain this? How are you articulating? Like how is your how has your communication changed when you're like getting on these podcasts and starting to articulate this this story?
Cillian Dunne:Um I I when it I've I've learned I learned like I just I'm learning by doing. I obviously I did like the Danny Jones podcasts, and I told you I thought I didn't do a great job uh on it, and I kind of got like torn apart in the comments, which is like kind of funny, like it, you know, I like read through them and I'm like laughing at them. But I that was like the first one that I did, and it was like a big one. And then as I like you know, listen to them and I like read the comments and I like go through and and do like more podcasts, I just find that like my at least when I'm talking about like the history of all this stuff and like giving context for like the book and and the stories behind it, the my explanations are just like a little bit sharper, they're um they're a little bit more like to the point and not as speculative. Uh, I think like I'm I'm now not afraid to be like, I don't know the answer to this question, but here's what I think, as opposed to when I first started doing this, I was just like really nervous and and like I'd just give my opinion like right away. But in doing so, I would make it seem like I knew it for a fact, if if that makes sense. Like I'm not afraid to say that I don't know something now, but uh, but that was really just like nerves in the beginning because I I don't like going in front of camera like really. I'm not like a I don't really like posting on social media or whatever, it's like a major met like hurdle for me to get over. Uh, but I'm just getting more comfortable with it.
Jack Moran:Yeah, and I remember the like original question I was gonna ask was you were talking about before how um the Dune writer was saying, like, if people aren't all over it, just jump to the new thing. With the right-hand man, what have you found to be like the aspect that people are most interested in?
Cillian Dunne:The documents really get people interested. That's like that's kind of like the the hook for the pitch for a lot of people. It's like, whoa, you know, there's like documents in the book, and even though they're not like super revealing or or whatever, they're not even like really confidential, but they they are like cool and and people like haven't really seen them before. I think after people get over that like hump and they start actually reading it and getting into the story, I think what people really take away the most is is um is like just how I guess just how personal the the I guess like the plight between Noriega and Bush and like the CIA like really was and um and I think people it's like goes back to that like macro versus like micro thing. It's like people see politics and like foreign policy as like this huge macro thing with like all these moving parts whereas I think I did a good job with the book of like really boiling that down to like just individuals making decisions in a room, uh and I think people really step away from the book being like, Well, I didn't know that that's how this was done, or or whatever. But then I say that and then I I get other people who like read it and they're like, Oh no, you're you're wrong. Like this is you know, this is so stupid. Like you you're just writing what like Carlos told you, and this and that and whatever, and and uh and yeah, so it's it I'm seeing it's kind of polar polarizing a little bit. Do you have any regrets from the book or you're no, I I don't think so. I I I don't have any regrets. What I guess like the one thing the one thing I wish I did before releasing the book was there this lady called Barbara Trent who directed who directed and produced a documentary called The Panama Deception in the early 90s and like 1992 or something. And it won Best Documentary at the Oscars back then. She's still alive and she lives in like I think in Virginia or like Delaware or something like that. Like she's really not far away, and I just I just never reached out to her and I I really should have um because I have a feeling that she probably still has like a lot of documents or at least at the very least, like audio recordings or video recordings of interviews she did with people at the time that could have like really supplemented the book. Uh, and I I just didn't do that. So that that's a regret. But apart from that, I think I did. I mean, I spent enough time on it with like enough focus to to feel happy with what I like produced, but from like a journalistic standpoint, I could have had that like one extra angle in there.
Jack Moran:Yeah, I mean you can't always you can't check all the boxes if you had gotten her, then there would have been something else that you would have been paying attention to. Yeah. Um, what's your what's like next? Like what's the next goal for the book? And you know, if it's your consciousness is on something else, like what is it?
Cillian Dunne:For the book, release a Spanish version, start selling it in Latin America, then release like an audiobook, um, have it on like Spotify, stuff like that. So many people don't read books, but they listen to books. I mean, I I do that too, so that's that's a big goal. And then I want to have it like adapted to film, you know. I think it's uh even though it's historically relevant, and uh, you know, I I do think it it answers a lot of questions when it comes to US foreign policy in Latin America and how sort of the Cold War like affected Latin America. This really is like a an educational book. Aside from all that, it's it's just kind of like a kick-ass story, like it it's so exciting, like Carlos so energetic, like every page that there's something happening, and and the things that are happening are like you know, it's like narcos type stuff. Like it would, it would, it would be like an amazing movie. It'd be like narcos meets good fellas, you know, gangsters in in Central America, like literally running a country and and dealing with like the the giant that is the US and the CIA. Like that's pretty that's pretty cool. So uh I want it to become a movie, and that's my ultimate goal. Like, I'm sending the book out to like everybody under the sun that will accept it, whether they know me or not. Like uh, I'm just sending them the book. So I feel hopeful it's only been like two or three months and there's good traction. So uh hopefully one day it's it's on like a big screen and and we win a couple Oscars and that'll be nice.
Jack Moran:Yeah, I think there's a good chance. I got faith. Yeah, where can people find the book and if they want to pick it up?
Cillian Dunne:Uh people can get the book on Amazon, just search the right hand man, Killian Dunn, and then if if there's anyone who owns like a bookstore or works in a library or anything like that, it's available on Ingram Spark, which is like the the uh wholesale distribution. Essentially, you can get it in all like normal channels. You can get it in like Barnes and Noble online and Walmart online and stuff like that.
Jack Moran:Hell yeah. Well, appreciate you coming on. Thank you, dude. Yeah.
