Why Being "Normal" Is Holding You Back

Jack Moran sits down with Haley Schiek, founder of Cosana Coaching, to explore the intersection of trauma, psychology, spirituality, and personal transformation. Drawing from her own experiences with trauma, eating disorder recovery, and years of studying neuroscience, yoga, and human behavior, Haley shares how healing begins by understanding, not suppressing, our emotions and identity. Together, Jack and Haley dive into topics ranging from addiction and masculinity to mindfulness, self-worth, and the pressure to conform, challenging conventional ideas about what it truly means to live a meaningful life. Rather than offering quick fixes, the conversation invites listeners to embrace curiosity, presence, and self-compassion as the foundation for lasting personal growth.

Cosana Coaching

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Host: Jack Moran

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Typically, we don't want to live in the future because that's how we create anxiety. Um, typically we don't want to live in the past because that's how we create grief and depression. But if we live in the now, we are connected to our power, right? If we're living in the past, I can't do anything to change my past.

Jack Moran 0:15

Welcome to Shaking Hands, where we provide the platform for entrepreneurs and thought leaders to share their stories in order to hopefully influence others to get out of the rat race and chase their own dreams. If you have any recommendations for guests or questions that you want to be asked, please don't hesitate to reach out. Anyways, if you enjoy the podcast, please like, comment, subscribe, and share in order to keep the podcast growing. Otherwise, I'm your host, Jack Moran, and this is Shaking Hands.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

College is honestly a crazy concept. I love school. Like, I love school. I love learning, but like I'm so disenchanted with higher ed and like just kind of the whole system. Cause I'm like, it makes no fucking sense that we send 18-year-olds to go live with each other and pay like 70k plus a year for them to get wasted and like there's no lived experience or like responsibility or anything under their belts. Like, I'm like, let's make gap years and all this other shit more normal. Like, give kids a chance to like develop their prefrontal cortex before investing that much money in their education.

Jack Moran 1:32

And it's a great system for the business.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Like, it's a it's exactly it's like all business. The kids are like, hell yeah, like and the parents, and then the parents are like mad at the kids when they're like funking or str like I mean, like so many people are like late diagnosed ADHD, like all this shit comes out when suddenly you're like on your own, and parents like, I don't understand why you're not thriving. And it's like, how can you not understand why they're not thriving? Like, I'm confused why you expected them to just launch. Like, we didn't give them any of the tools to do that. Like, they learned how to do math and calculus.

Jack Moran 2:10

You're right. They'd like no like. They don't know how to go grocery shopping, they don't know how to do it. Zero emotional intelligence.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Yeah, no emotional intelligence. Like a lot of them are still like manipulative because that was how they got their needs met in high school because their parents wouldn't let them meet them directly, because probably they were trying to do that dangerously, like understandable, but like it's not. I mean, I I'm it's insane that I made it out of both high school and college.

Jack Moran 2:35

Where did you go to college? Did you go in Georgia?

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Utah.

Jack Moran 2:39

Utah, okay. That's sick. Yeah. What was that like?

SPEAKER_01 2:43

It was, I loved it. I loved it. What'd you study? Psychology.

Jack Moran 2:47

Okay, sweet.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

And that's like outdoor education and leadership, yeah.

Jack Moran 2:50

Are you kind of doing like psychology now?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yeah, totally. Like, there's many different things you could probably call me. Um, you know.

Jack Moran 2:59

How do you summarize it?

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Um professional coach, trauma-informed yoga teacher, peer educator, speaker. Um, but like I use psychology and neurobiology to Neurobiology? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jack Moran 3:13

So like neurolinguistic programming type stuff, or um, that's a that's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Um, some of that, definitely, because I'm helping people like get back in the body and um yeah, like locate memories and beliefs in time and like let go what doesn't serve them and kind of make connections to understanding how their inner world is actually creating their outer world.

Jack Moran 3:36

You've read The Body Keeps the Score.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Yeah, I have a lot of notes on that actually. Really? Yes, great book, but also shitty book.

Jack Moran 3:43

Really, okay. Why is it a shitty book and why is it a great book?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Should we wait until we're recording?

Jack Moran 3:48

We've been recording.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

We've been recording.

Jack Moran 3:50

Yes. That's like that's like a big thing that we learned with the podcast, is like if I uh we used to introduce and like make it this big introduction. And people would be like, we'd be having like a good conversation, and all of a sudden, like you'd see the mask go on, but then if we just like transition with no one knowing it, it just flows a lot easier. So it's been going for like yeah, probably like 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

This is hilarious. I love that. Okay, then let's get into it. All right. So the body keeps the score, changed my conceptualization of myself for the better. I'm someone who has a shit ton of trauma. Um, I experienced uh sexual assault in high school, betrayal trauma from friends in middle school, and struggled to be present, to take care of myself, to want to be human, all those things. And like a lot of people I think would describe me as like a difficult person. Like I've been told that many times in my life. And reading the body kept keeps the score, I don't know, like it helped me make sense of myself. Like I was like, oh, okay, like the things I've been through actually have quite literally shaped my brain and how I'm wired. Like I am currently wired for protection, not connection, and that's a problem, and a huge vulnerability to things like addiction. Um, I don't know if you've ever heard the the phrase like addiction is the opposite of connection. So healing means learning how to um replace the drug with things like this and feel safe enough to be yourself, which honestly it's probably taken me 20 years to fully feel like unapologetically Haley. Um but there's there's some problems with the author of that book. Um there's a lot of allegations of him just frankly being an asshole to people at his foundation, um, fabrication of research. Um there's in rereading the book some very interesting perspectives on victims of trauma, um, kind of framing them as like economic burdens. And um he's a bit sympathetic to men who've committed some pretty atrocious war crimes. That I mean, like raping women's just not a part of war, you know, like that's not what we're going to other countries to do as, you know, on these military missions. So rereading that, I think, like was kind of shocking because the first time I read it, it was like my brain just skipped that all. And then, you know, 10 years later, more healed, you're like, oh, interesting. I'm reading this really differently, and I'm viewing him as an authority in the field really differently. So I've been working on a book for what year is it, 2026? So I started writing this in 2021, and I kept being like, oh, I I wish I were further along, or I wish I had dedicated more time to writing the book. It's so close to being ready. Um, it's what my program that I've been running for four or five years now is based on. And I'm so glad that I didn't move forward with publishing it and writing it in that old timeline in my head, because now I have access to like way more interesting and accurate research, more feminist voices and perspectives. And like I'm totally decentralizing his book because there's just A, I mean, there's other models also of thinking about trauma now. So like there's I really like the predictive model. So instead of just thinking about trauma and events being like held in like the fascia or the tissue, um, which yeah, like we go through things and the body kind of tenses in a certain way, and and you hold that, and that eventually manifests in cellular dysfunction or um muscular dysfunction and injury or psychological issues, um, that's what we kind of mean when we talk about like as above, so below. Um it's this slow increase of like these energetic issues. Like if we think about our cells, right, they're energy powerhouses. And so if we have something happen to us in a certain part of the body, the cells are not going to be operating the same. And so we call that like an energy dysfunction. Um, in non-scientific terms, I call it like an energy drain or block or leak. And so that's why it's really helpful to pair neuroscience and psychology in the more like hard sciences with the symbolic um systems like the chakras and what we've talked about in yoga. So yoga is also a science, but the East and Western minds have kind of been at this ridiculous war for a long time, which is good for certain businesses, frankly. Um, but my whole point is that like energy healing is not woo at all. Um, it just sounds woo. But if we want to make it more scientific, it's nervous system healing, it's it's trying to figure out like, okay, where are we holding things in the body? What beliefs are making us tense, are are guiding us to avoid putting ourselves out there by doing things like this. You know, if I'm believing still what my mind thinks from when I was, I don't know, 12, um, which is that I'm annoying and I'm too much, and uh it's not safe to be myself because people are gonna try to humiliate me, you know, they're gonna reject me, humiliate me, they'll say they like me to my face and then behind my back, you know, say whatever they want. I mean, now I don't care. But I've had to do like over a decade of work, energy work, thought work, right? These these cognitive impulses in the mind to switch how they're um being directed. Because if I keep thinking these negative thoughts about myself, like you're so annoying, um, you don't, you shouldn't be seen, like stay safe, stay quiet, like don't connect deeply and authentically with other people, like be who you think other people want you to be, fit in basically. Um that's gonna like eventually create real tangible impacts on my brain function, and that is going to create real tangible impacts on how I speak and connect and behave. And so it's this pathway of um, okay, thought, feeling, behavior, outcome. And that's the essence of cognitive behavioral therapy. So a lot of coaching techniques utilize therapeutic ideologies, um, like CBT, um, IFS is another really amazing one that I love. Um internal family systems therapy. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Inside Out. Oh gosh, you gotta see Inside Out. That's like it's um basically you kind of get a peek into this girl who's growing up, her brain, and it starts when she's young. And there's only a few emotions. They all have this big control panel, and um, different emotions are always trying to press buttons and kind of control what's happening outside, and you can see through her eyes, and um you know, sometimes sadness will lay on the control panel and the girl will be crying. Um, but they're all helping to integrate memories, and so different memories that are being stored in this control room are colored according to the emotion attached to the memories, and so it's this really cool peek into the human psyche, and we can kind of conceptualize these different emotions as different parts of ourselves. And I've done a lot of I've done, God, like probably 15 years of therapy at this point, in addition to 15 years of yoga. So I'm uh pretty familiar with the clusterfuck that is happening up here in my control room. But um, it's it's always changing as we age and it and it can get more complex. And um, you know, there's a a funny, funny emotion called um, oh my gosh, I'm gonna say it wrong. It's on we it's like you know, when teenagers are just like, I'm too cool to care. That's not like a thing when you're younger, like you don't feel that.

Jack Moran 12:16

It's just like a coping mechanism.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Yeah, it's it's a new emotional experience that has to get integrated into the family, but we don't always like all of our emotions, they're not all easy to deal with. And we get into trouble when we label something as difficult to deal with and we create an aversion to it. So in yoga, um, we talk a lot about how like what we become attached to or we create aversions from that creates suffering. For a long time, I you know thought if I just behave perfectly enough, then I won't have pain. I won't suffer. I just have to be perfect, I just have to be valedictorian, I just have to get the grades, I just have to make my parents happy. Nope. Like you can do everything right and you're still gonna experience pain. It's just part of the human experience. And so learning to A, accept all emotions and not judge them, right? Kind of be that non-j non-judgmental witness instead of this like very involved drama director, um, just kind of amplifies pain, honestly. If we can just let it pass through the body and remember that back to the energy stuff, emotions are just energy in motion, and we tend to really mess up our emotions when we try too hard to change them. Instead of just acknowledge, ask, okay, like, what's this information? This is like electrical chemical information moving through my body. What does it have to say? And if we're too afraid or we don't have the skills to face that emotion and try to understand it, like you know, some of these younger emotions and inside out have, like, we don't know what to do with sadness. Like, we think sadness just needs to be more like joy. But it's actually like, no, sadness has a place, and sadness can help her feel seen and validated when something disappointing happens. And joy doesn't know how to comfort the girl, you know, when she loses the hockey game. But sadness knows that she can just sit with her and not have to change that disappointment. And then from there, you know, she just gets to keep moving on. But a lot of us we panic, and if we feel something unpleasant or difficult, a we tend to blame ourselves and think that we've done something wrong to feel that when in fact it's just part of the human experience. But B, we try to get rid of it as quickly as possible instead of learn what it might be saying.

Jack Moran 14:42

So I find like in my own experience that a lot of these things kind of have a balance on the scale. There's like a tipping point. So I think that I've learned over a long time to kind of be that conscious observer where I can dissociate from emotions very, very easily. But I don't know if that's an issue. And I think that I look at the alternative side of that, like what is the con side of that? Like on the pro side, like it's very difficult to like spike me and like get me upset about something, like terrible things happen in my life, and like I can stay very, very even keeled and like emotionally disassociated from it. But on the flip side of that, like it can sometimes affect connecting with people. And so I feel like a lot of these things kind of have like a tipping point, and like you said said before, like you've felt that you've become like um unapologetically yourself, which like you feel probably a lot more comfortable in your own skin, and like there's a lot of pros to that, but then there's obviously probably the other side to the balance. It's like at a certain point, like we we have to like you know contribute to some societal norms so that we can like you know interact within a group. And so it's like, okay, once I go back to the group, then I have to compromise on those things that I feel strongly about, and like then that has an opposite effect, you know, and so it's like very difficult. Find there is no like, and that's kind of the beauty in the world, is like most of these problems have like two sides of the coin that are like on this tipping balance, and you can debate like both sides, and there's pros and cons to each, and it's hard to find like what is that perfect middle, and that is kind of what makes the world interesting, is like you never can find that perfect like symbiosis, and like you're all that's like what makes your personality kind of is like some people are good at this, but then on the opposite side, like they're bad at this, and you know, so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

So I love that, and I think we can go back into it the the con of um you know being always like the calm rock who's like non-super emotional no matter what's going on and the benefits, but like it is really important to not sacrifice freedom for the illusion of belonging. Like the older I get, the more I realize like I'm not sure I really want to be normal. Like, I I felt a lot of pressure to be normal my whole life. And um, you know, women in particular, I think men too, though. I've been working more and more with young men in my program, and they too are afraid of being excellent, they too are afraid of being wonderful, of being talented, of success. A lot of us are afraid of standing out in any way. And so I love this fable about a chicken and an eagle, where this farmer finds a baby eagle, and he takes him back to live with the chickens, and he raises him in the chicken coop, and so he acts like a chicken. And one day this naturalist comes along and is like, Sir, did you know that you've got an eagle in your chicken coop? And the guy's like, Yeah, I do. Um, he's one of them. And the naturalist was like, Well, could I maybe try to teach the eagle to fly and see if it would like to be reconnected with its true nature? And the guy says, Sure, be my guest. And so he tries several times, and each time the eagle frankly has no interest in leaving the coop. Um it's lonely just with this new naturalist. The idea of being alone in the sky is not appealing, so he just keeps flying back to the coop until the naturalist takes him to the peak of a mountain, and the eagle experiences the wind up there, and he has a new point of view, and something stirs within him, and he flaps his wings and he flies. And in that moment, he remembers who he really is. And I feel like so connected to that story because I think for so much of like I have always known that I am in my own way an eagle, and I think a lot of us are eagles, and we act like fucking chickens. And I just got tired of acting like a chicken. Um, you know, I lived in Charleston for three years, and during that whole entire three-year period, I didn't drink. Like I just saw how normal the drinking culture was and how extreme, and how like every concept of fun as an adult seemed to somehow be related to substances, and it just like it was hurting my being. And I felt like I was distancing myself from the opportunity to really be joyful and to maybe meet people who would actually be more into this stuff that would fulfill me. And um, I will not lie, it was very lonely. Um, and you know, I was married back then, and um, I remember like probably seven months into not drinking, my ex-husband being like, maybe you should just drink again. You're no fun. And it was so painful because I was so proud. And I just needed time, you know, to figure out what does fun mean to me as an adult, especially in a new city. I didn't grow up in Charleston, you know, and it's a really different culture than where I was moving from Utah, you know, where we go out and we climb and we hike and we ski and we go camping and backpacking. And I mean, don't get me wrong, I use substances out there too, but it just didn't feel like the thing to go do. And so the older I've gotten and the more I've said, okay, like fuck normal. Basically, like I'm gonna let myself be weird and wonderful in my own little ways, these are the things actually I'm not willing to sacrifice on, and I don't care if that makes me less fun or more lonely. Like, that is what feeds my human spirit, and that is what enables me to do the work that I actually care about while I'm here.

Jack Moran 20:54

And I think the pendulum swings, like you are on like the you know, conformists, like you're you're conforming, and then you become like more yourself, and it's like isolating, you're on the island. But what you realize is like there's so many people on the planet, like there's a lot of people that are aligned with you. You just like haven't been in the places that like you find those people, and eventually that pendulum slint swings where you're like within a group, but you're also being yourself. So like you're not conforming to like something that's outside of yourself, like the it's isolating at first because you're trying to like figure out this new way of being, yes, this new world, and then like the world kind of like you know, circles around you, and you're like, wow, everyone around me like aligns with my mission and like aligns with my personality, and like is lifting me up as a part of like it's taking a piece of me to like be a part of this.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Absolutely. Well, and it's taken time also to realize like when you are willing to do that, like it makes other people uncomfortable and Question themselves. So I can't tell you the number of people who like were like, Are you sure you don't want to drink? Like, are you and like I consume alcohol now? Like, I was like, I had said I just want to do 12 months and see if I can do it. Just like challenge myself to like get to know myself at a deeper level and do a reset, you know, post-college, post-COVID. I was like, I just don't want this in my life. And I ended up choosing to like not drink for three years. I liked it that much. But it I felt friction and like it was hard because there were certain environments that they genuinely weren't as fun. Like they are more fun if you are intoxicated because you sort of need a mind-altering substance to be willing to stay in that situation or an environment and like make it fun. As where if you're not consuming things, it's pretty easy to be like, well, I'm going to bed. Like there's no like point for me to still be hanging out. Like my being is done and satisfied and tired, and y'all are getting too loose, and I'm not on that level.

Jack Moran 23:02

I do that often.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yes. Um, but like I love what you're talking about, the pendulum too. It's bringing up this concept we have in yoga called maya, which means illusion. So in the material world which we are currently living in, we have a lot of false binaries. And um, you know, it's like you're either conforming or you're an outcast, or you're right, or you're wrong, or you're sober, or you're blah, blah, blah, you know, and it's like, but the pendulum, it's still the same pendulum, and it's the same spectrum, and it's everyone is just riding these energy waves, these frequencies, and we're all just kind of in different places on the wave. And in terms of like kind of what you're talking about, like attracting your people, the more sure of myself I have become, the more quickly the people that I really resonate with seem to find me. And the more quickly we are able to connect. But in the beginning, when you're like not really that sure, you're like, I feel like I need to be this way, or like this is who I am, but like I don't know. I felt, I mean, dude, I felt so much shame for turning down counseling programs to become a life coach. Like, for years, like I feel like I really diminished my my value as a as a person in mental health care. And it's taken, I mean, I mean, I'm five years into coaching, 15 into yoga. It has really truly taken probably until this last year to be like, yeah, like what I do is super cool and valuable. And Life Coach does not begin to capture the impact that I get to have in other people's lives and like the relationships that I get to enjoy with the people I serve.

Jack Moran 24:50

So, what are you like doing like with start to finish? Like, what is the journey that you have with a client?

SPEAKER_01 24:56

It is really dependent on the person because everyone's coming to me from a different place. So I think um, you know, having been through treatment myself, I um, you know, like I said, I was sexually assaulted in high school by my um best friend's boyfriend, and um I hid it from my parents for a while because I I didn't know what rape was. Like you kind of grow up thinking, like, oh yeah, it's like a stranger in an alley, you know. You never think that someone who you've hung out with for years would do that to you. And so it took me probably four months to even be willing to admit to anyone what had happened and ask for help. But like I was being such a shithead, I I just felt bad. Like, because I I come from a good family, like I loved my family, and I just felt like they deserved better than the way I was behaving. I didn't really want to be here anymore. So I was, you know, smoking a shit ton of weed and I was self-harming and just sneaking out all these things. Just I did not care about myself anymore, and I saw the impact that was having on my family. Um, and you know, asking for help, they sent me to these treatment programs, which was life-saving. And like the boarding school I went to and finished high school at is shut down now. Like these programs can save your life, but they could also be traumatizing, and they can be kind of like this is this is what you do, like this is the way that you thrive as a person. Um, that's why programs like like AA have never resonated with me. Um, one, I would never call myself an addict or an alcoholic. That just makes no sense to me at all. I like how you think about yourself, your identity. Um, in yoga, we call that your ahankara or your ego. That is so important. So if I am identifying myself with these substances, that's a problem because I want to be disidentifying myself from those things. So looking at it from a more neurobiology perspective and a humanist perspective, it's like you were a person who had a lot of vulnerabilities to turning to a substance to cope with your human experience. And the longer you were in that place, the harder it was to get out of it. But when you have, I've seen this time and time again, if I have the correct resources, if I have the community, if I have the right therapist, if you know, sometimes if you need to go on medication, I've been so resistant to you know SSRIs and all of those things like my whole life. I'm very holistic and natural. But they can help. And if you have the right tools in place, it is really easy to not reach for those easy button relief providers like a drug or um self-harm. And so with my clients, like I really take the time to understand a what they're willing to do. Because the only reason that the programs I went through were helpful to me was because I asked for help. I wanted to get better, I wanted to live a good life. Over half the kids at that boarding school with me, they did not want to fucking be there. And they did not want to stop using drugs, they didn't want to feel their feelings. I'm, you know, DMing with one of them right now who we're we're both almost 30, and you know, he's like, Yeah, I'm still using all the same substances, I'm still avoiding the trauma. Um, I'm suffering. And I'm like, I feel I feel for you. Like, and I think these traditional treatment models, like, you know, talk therapy, um, residential treatment centers, full sobriety, 12-step programs, like that just doesn't work for a lot of people, and it's not that realistic for for many. And it breeds a lot of shame when we don't open the door to doing things differently or like redefining, like, how do you like I'm more harm reduction approach? So if people are coming to me and they're saying I'm using these three substances, I'm like, okay, well, which one, first of all, is like the most problematic in your eyes, and which one are you most willing to deal with? Because sometimes it's not the most problematic one. They might have the biggest attachment to the um cocaine, but they might be willing to do something about the cannabis. Honestly, usually it's the opposite. They're more willing to do something about the cocaine, and no one wants to let go of the smoking weed.

Jack Moran 29:15

Um, I think that is, it's like such a hard drug to quit, and like it's probably the hardest drug I ever had to quit.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Yeah, I mean, I've only recently um stepped away from it, and and I've stepped away from it many times in my life. And um and for me, it's like I didn't I turn to it when I don't have the right resources in place. And I also until this year didn't know I had ADHD, um, which is truly a cognitive disability and explains so much of the struggles I've had as an adult. Like, I feel like a lot of people can kind of look at, um, especially women who are like smart, like I freaking graduated valedictorian. So it's like, why are you struggling so much to like why like why are you opening the fridge and crying because you cannot figure out how to make yourself food in a timely manner because you're getting so hyper-fixated on whatever you were doing for so many hours on your computer? Like it's an energy management problem, and we we just need a lot more time and resources and support than I feel like American society gives us, and we're kind of all put on this like normal timeline of like, okay, you graduate high school, you go to college, if you do what I did, you get married, and you know, all blah blah blah, the whole thing. And I don't think it's serving a lot of us. Um I I really love questioning what's normal now because the more I do that, the healthier I feel like I am. And I think that the very first time I started doing that was with my eating disorder in college when I learned about two really important forms of psychology. So I learned about the psychology of masculinity, and then I learned about the um psychology of objectification, so how men are conceptualizing themselves, and then how women are sort of being trained to view themselves through the the male gaze. And I did not realize that I had, I mean, I was growing up when Tumblr was like a thing and Instagram was new, and it was just like the wild west of the internet and social media and um these really harmful body ideals, you know. I wanted a thigh gap so bad, and I was like a national champion gymnast, like 5'2, stout, you know, I was not built for that. Um, but that was what was applauded as important and powerful, and that makes you look intelligent and be accepted. And and so we strive for normal because normal signifies so much more than just fitting in.

Jack Moran 31:46

Um explain that to me, the masculinity and object uh what was the other one of the psychology of objectification. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

So the psychology of masculinity, um, I want to just preface this whole conversation by saying I love men, and I think a lot of women want to love men even deeper and like cherish them. And I think there's a lot of harmful rhetoric from both sides that make men feel like women just hate them and men feel like really emasculated. But I think what has really happened, if you really go into the psychology and do some research, is that the way that masculinity has been constructed and and programmed into boys is very non-human. Like it is very detached emotionally. It is either you are happy and powerful and independent or you're angry. Like those are like that's kind of the emotional spectrum that men are allowed to have. But like to feel like you are ashamed, to feel insecure, to cry, to be sad, to be really emoting of love, like those things have been presented as feminine. And because feminine has present been presented as lesser than the masculine, men don't want to be associated with it. So it becomes this like we have to, even though we want to be with women, we somehow need to like detach and be better than the traits that we associate with femininity. And so it's really harmful and it leads to ridiculous rates of male suicide, um, porn addiction, um, nicotine, like men are finding all sorts of ways to cope with this lack of authentic connection to self and to other people. And um, it's interesting because myself included, and a lot of my friends, you know, we talk about this all the time, but it's like we have been so trained to want like a very logical, rational man and view that as like, oh, he's really stable and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the longer you get into relationships with men like that, the more you realize, okay, they're either so emotionally disconnected that they can't actually meet a woman where she needs to be met at, or they're emotionally suppressing through self-harming ways like porn, nicotine. You know, I'm in the action sports community, and surfing and kiting and all these things can be total addictions to you, like the chemicals that go through your body. Um, and if that's like your only form of feeling, your relationships are going to implode at some point, and you probably will still feel ashamed and lonely, but you won't be able to make sense of it. And so then the only thing that makes sense is it has to be her fault that I would be feeling this way because she's the emotional one, and I don't, you know, so it's it's this really crazy dynamic that the more I've been willing to talk about it with my my female friends, the more I'm like, wow, like we are all experiencing this, and this is so sad because we all, I mean, I you know, my gay friends, they they've just they've figured it out with the women. Um, but us straight people, like we are a lot of us are suffering um because we really want deep connections with with men and to be able to have men hold us in our chaotic emotional nature, which is just human, and they can't. It it freaks them out.

Jack Moran 35:11

Yeah, the the and I want to unpack that a little bit, but I have like kind of studied into this like with my own relationships to understand like it definitely feels like a communication gap. And like as someone who's trying to be like productive in like a relationship, you know, like my nature is to like study into it and understand like what is occurring, and like you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels to me like, and you're saying right now that like the issue is that the male needs to like you know, kind of step into these more feminine qualities, right? Like for me, it feels like there's it's polar, it's like a polar relationship, and like it's almost like with a woman, a a fet very feminine woman, because I think that like a man can lean, you know, feminine traits in a woman can.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

How did you describe a very feminine woman? Like, what are the qualities?

Jack Moran 36:10

Yeah, so I don't know if this is like um I don't know if I would describe it as like this is like a feminine person. Like I'm not saying like this is a woman, but what I would just like anchor like feminine to is more of like a feeling emotional communication, and a male is much more like logic rational, like concrete sequential, where a female is much more like random abstract, and so there's a disconnect because like I like you know, my girlfriend will be communicating to me like um you did this, right? And then I'll be like, but this, this, this, and this happened, so that doesn't equal what you're saying. But for her, it's not not really as much about the the those concrete facts, it's more like I felt this way, so it is true. And like at the end of the day, I can sit there and like stick to my logic, and she can stick there to the emotion, and like there's no common ground. Yeah, but like we're trying to like understand that commute how we like communicate differently, and it's like I have a lot more um connection if I just like put that aside and say, like, you know, I'm sorry that you feel that way, or like I understand how you feel, and like trying to like step into her emotion and feel that way, but still, like it doesn't feel to me like an issue with the way that I'm thinking. I think that there's like a lot of benefits and like pros, it's again that like balance of that spectrum. There's like a lot of pros in that um way of thinking, and same with her, like she's very highly intuitive, like emotionally intelligent, or like feels things better, processes things better, which I don't have that ability. Um but in any of those relationships, I think it's having the ability to like step out of your own, call it ego or like psyche or whatever, and like put yourself in how they're processing things, and when they're doing the same, that's when that like connection happens.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Absolutely. Well, I love that you bring up ego. So, like if we go to a hankara, ego, identity, we have to kind of ask, like, okay, like say your girlfriend is like, you did this. Like, if you were to put yourself in that situation and be like, okay, what is my mind saying? What is my ego saying? Like, you did this, what do I think that means about me? Like, what do I think she thinks about me now? That's typically where the block is happening and why we go to the facts, because if we can disprove her perception, then we don't have to reconceptualize who we are. And it can be really painful to realize like we can have the best intentions, all the facts, like whatever, but it's the impact that we have to learn how to care about. And so, whenever anyone tells me that they're like, Oh, I care way more about people's intentions than the impact, I'm like, you and I are not friends, like we're probably not gonna be friends because people who only care about intentions are not able to take accountability when they hurt your feelings accidentally because it will shatter their concept of self and they cannot handle feeling shame. And instead of learning how to feel guilt, so there's a I in my program back to like how I work with people, what I teach everyone is how to climb something called the emotion frequency scale or the scale of human consciousness. It's not a scientifically validated scale, but conceptually it's very helpful. Um, also, just because something's not scientifically validated doesn't mean experientially it's not useful. But if we look at it, um, you know, I did a bunch of energy healing starting in in 2020 using the chakra system and um this scale. And so I started conceptualizing emotions, not just from a psychological perspective, but more from a frequency and energy perspective. So if we look at the scale, some of the densest emotions, right, more slow wave according to this scale, um, would be shame. Shame was the lowest, most dense um frequency of all. And we're talking about like hurts in terms of vibrations and the frequency cycles. So if you think about like when you feel really depressed, do you feel like your body is like very light and energized or very heavy? Heavy. Right. So that's these are literally heavier emotions. They don't travel through the body as easily. Um, shame in particular, it actually serves no purpose aside from escaping accountability and change. So when we just live in shame, and I was a walking ball of shame for much of my life. Um, I just I hated myself so much. And it took a lot of courage and work to be willing to bump up a level on this frequency scale and choose to feel guilt instead of shame. So the difference between guilt and shame is that shame means I am bad. Period. Guilt, I did something bad. I acted against my values, I might have hurt someone. There's a huge difference there. Like, if I'm in shame, if I believe I am just this way, what can I do to make the situation better or improve things? Nothing. But if I choose to feel guilty, I can say to my partner, dang, even though that wasn't my intention, like I feel really bad that I hurt your feelings. Like, do you want to talk more about that? Because that doesn't shatter my concept of self. I'm not like, oh, I'm a bad person. It's like, oh, I'm a human being who like accidentally just hurt another human being. Like, that's pretty human, you know? And so like the higher up the scale we go, the more amazing, you know, high vibe, high frequency emotions we can access, um, the more expanded we are, right? So if we look at this from like a um also like a contraction expansion state, like when we are in guilt, shame, grief, anger, um anger is where we start to start tipping the scale. It's a really important energy, actually. And as a woman, um, we've been really trained out of being allowed to be angry. And uh it's been very scary as an adult to feel such anger and actually allow myself to feel that and learn how to work with it. Um, but anger is where we start to be willing to take action and make changes, it's uh it's an ignition. Um and so, you know, maybe from anger we find courage and we find willingness and then we find acceptance and then we find love and then we find joy and enlightenment, and and those are really nice emotions to experience. But if we don't make room for those, if we keep holding on to our past, if we keep holding on to these limiting beliefs, if we keep recycling old memories, manas, that that's another part of the mind in yoga, we are not going to be able to be present. And frankly, all of these higher energies, frequencies, emotions, like those are only available right now. Like I can only feel joy with you right now because I'm present. Joy is not like a thing in the future. Even even if we're talking about uh a concept in psychology called anticipatory joy, I'm experiencing the joy right now. I'm I'm allowing myself to think forward, but I'm relishing in the the looking forward to that thing. Does that make sense?

Jack Moran 43:44

No, you gotta anticipatory joy.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Anticipatory joy, yes. So there's, I forget the other kind, but it's where you look back and and kind of cherish. Uh savoring is a is a is another word that you could use. So you can create more joy in your life. By mindfully looking to the future. Typically, we don't want to live in the future because that's how we create anxiety. Typically, we don't want to live in the past because that's how we create grief and depression. But if we live in the now, we are connected to our power, right? If we're living in the past, I can't do anything to change my past. If I'm living the future, I also can't do anything there because that time space doesn't exist yet. But if I am here right now, I can take action. I can be connected to my emotions. I can deepen my emotions. I can choose to ignore my emotions, and that's probably gonna send me back towards the past because that's just kind of the way that this whole system flows.

Jack Moran 44:38

Um Do you think you require some of each, or you should only be in the present?

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Um to live in the material world and to do things according to normal society, you have to dip into both.

Jack Moran 44:52

Because, like, yeah, to grow and to change make that decision to change your emotions, there has to be like a hope of like the outcome of that. Yeah. Like you're doing it for an outcome which requires you to think.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Well, actually, that causes suffering. So you gotta do it for the process.

Jack Moran 45:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

So, like, you know, I was a competitive gymnast. Um, I cared a lot about my results. Um, if I cared too much about my results, I didn't enjoy the training. Why did I become a gymnast? Because I loved flipping around. And if I'm only focused on getting a score, I am not present for the experience of being a gymnast.

Jack Moran 45:27

But the experience, like that process, is an outcome as well, isn't it? Like it's it's it's you're getting a satisfaction from like you're shifting that perspective to not being like an external, now it's an internal thing, but it is still like a response to um like you're you're getting a positive response to a different thing. So it's like still kind of forward thinking.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

It's tricky.

Jack Moran 45:51

Yeah, it's like a web, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

I mean, understanding consciousness for me, I imagine, will be a lifelong endeavor. I'm only really 15 years into studying the human experience. I've only been a human for 28. So I feel like there's still a lot for me to understand to even be able to entertain like that idea on a deeper level. Um, but I know for me, like I am only confident if I'm present. I'm not confident if I'm living in the future. Even when we, you know, I work with um Sensi Graves, she's a pro-kiteboarder and amazing executive coach. And when we do our, you know, our belief statements, um, it's like I am so grateful that I already am this way. I am so grateful that I already have a million-dollar memoir deal. I am so grateful that it's happening now because that changes the way that you behave and the way your mind works. And if you're always just projecting and hoping and wishing, it's just just in this web that is not tangible. So um it's really tricky to talk about, and and it really has taken so much time and and work for me to even get to this place, and I feel like I'm just still dipping my toes down the rabbit hole.

Jack Moran 47:08

Yeah, and I mean you people go like, you know, their entire lifetime like full fill philosophically trying to like encapsulate like what is going on, and like I don't know of anyone that's like hit the nail on the head.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Well, everyone feels like a lot of pressure, I think, also, like again, being in the material realm and like science being so important, which again is just like a method for studying and understanding life. Um, but like people like want to the ego gets involved. Like, you know, I've worked in clinical research, I worked in the brain stimulation lab at MUSC, and like, holy crap, the ego in academia is really wild. Like, you know, it becomes about publishing, and it becomes about getting, you know, funding, and it and it becomes something so it sounds harsh, but like perverse, and not just like the pursuit of curiosity and and understanding the human experience. And there's so much science that has been discredited for so long, like peer-reviewed studies that are totally just like uh telepathy, for example. There's so much peer-reviewed science about telepathy, especially in neurodivergent and autistic individuals, and still people will lose their medical licenses for talking about it, people want to discredit it because it would cause us to shift our current paradigm, our current belief system and worldview. And again, that's all back to Ahankara, the ego. And so the more detached we can be from like needing to know or like being so set on our beliefs, like I think it's really important to have values, um, but to be a lot more flexible with the way we view things and be more open-minded and and and allow those those bits of new information and people and experiences to just see how they land and resonate and get even more curious when we have an immediate, like, an immediate like, oh, like that's not that can't be, you know, and it's like, okay, well, why can't it be that way? Like, what is your mind, what what is so threatening about potentially believing that autistic individuals who can't speak are able to communicate, create entire music albums, um, no passwords to teachers' computers, um, crazy stuff that we currently can't explain because we have to shift the paradigm away from this atomic material, like the atom is this, and it's just it's you know, it's built this way into more quantum possibility probability of like we don't really know, but these things seem to interact, and we're still learning how it works, and we can have theories, but when people are unwilling to take that seriously, um, I mean, I feel like I really internalized that growing up. I've got my own abilities and weird uh intuitive things that I have totally tried to distance myself from. And back to the cannabis, like the human mind, depending on how it's wired, um, especially a lot of neurodivergent individuals, use a lot of cannabis because it creates quiet. And and for me, like you know, um even still, like it's so nice to, you know, with it doesn't need to be substances, but that stillness. And sometimes I think for some people, the only time that they are still is when they're sitting down having a drink or having a smoke, and um you know, I call it my data dump, but I sit outside at night and and I just let my mind empty, and it's in that empty place that other insights, frequencies, information can come through. But if you are always just so tied up and busy in the human drama and in processing and thinking, you are not being, and being is like being present, and so again, that's where like the joy is. So I I once had a really um scary energy healer. Actually, she's she I met her in Puerto Rico, and as soon as I had like my first session with her, I was like, Oh shit, I'm not ready for you. Like, I am not ready for the level of healing that you I know that you can help provide me with. Um, but when I finally had the courage to go back and see her, she was like, You are not addicted to cannabis. And I was like, girl, I think you're wrong. I think I am. And she was like, You're addicted to thinking. And I was like, Oh, you were right. Because it doesn't feel safe to just be in my body or be in the moment or be in connection like this. You know, now I've rewired my brain to be able to be present for a conversation like this and just be, but it felt a lot safer to constantly be processing, thinking, predicting, remembering, trying to plan, and that's that trauma back to that like predictive model. Um, and if we've had really bad shit happen, odds are we're gonna predict that more shit is gonna happen. So we avoid putting ourselves out there and risk getting hurt again.

Jack Moran 52:16

So, what should we do? Um, I've had a lot of these, like, I've been through a lot of these rabbit holes too for myself, and like trying to understand, like, you know, what my life in the past, like where I'm going, and like that causes anxieties, and like definitely addicted to thinking. Yeah, you know, like this thing doesn't shut off very often. Yeah, um, and again, there's pros to that and there's cons to that, but I'm curious like what your like model of the world has like intuitively told you like this is like the direction, or like this is what helps me, or this is what I've seen work for other people to like have a better, more fulfilling, positive life.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

Yeah, really good question. Love your vulnerability. Um basically, so the program that I designed is a compilation of all of the things that I have learned and tried and done for myself, just like put in a more sequential logical order. And the foundation of it is compassion and curiosity. So I think a lot of us are very critical of ourselves and we think very critically because we think, again, that will keep us safe, that will keep us motivated, that's gonna make us successful. We think compassion is soft, it's gonna make us not accountable, or we're just gonna slog off, or whatever. But compassion really is just being kind to yourself while being accountable. And that's the first thing. So it's like it's really a lot of mind, mind work and and emotion work. Um, the next thing is like learning how to name your emotions and not do anything about it. Just say, hey, sadness. Um, with the internal family systems therapy that I've done. Uh, there's also a coaching model of that called the adult chair. Um, both are really useful, and I kind of dip my toes into all of these different modalities depending on what a person needs. But like I this summer was going through some tremendous amounts of grief and had to meet a part called sadness, who I didn't I didn't know this version of sadness. Sadness came to me looking like this ratchet cat who had been totally neglected and her fur was matted and all this stuff. And I uh my therapist was like, You I think you just need to like say hi to sadness and start to like pet the kitty, so to speak. And so, you know, I would wake up in the morning and I would feel that heaviness on my chest, and it felt like there's a really good show called uh um Big Mouth, and they call um her the Depression Kitty. It's like these kids going through puberty and they've externalized all of their emotions as well. And um, there's this depression kitty, and she comes and she lays on some of the teenagers. And I started just saying, Okay, like hi, sadness, like I see you petting her, and um weirdly enough, in a week, I would say hi to sadness, and she would just kind of like, you know, what's up, and like kind of walk on. Like she didn't need my attention anymore. And her the mind is wild. That we can conceptualize all of this and that it's so vivid for me. But like her fur looked shiny, she looked well kept, and it was just like great, like now I know you, and now I know how to how to kind of support you. Um, so we call that self-energy.

Jack Moran 55:38

Like you're kind of like visualizing, and then that like visualization is anchoring in some neural pathway that's like connecting like that image to an emotion. Exactly. And then you're like reassociating it by changing that image and like how you're responding to it.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

So, you know, I was giving pep talks out at the um Wahine Surf competition this weekend, and helping people reframe fear because fear and excitement are processed in the same part of the brain and the amygdala, so the amygdala gets totally fucked from trauma, it's like our alarm center and it becomes hypersensitive. That's why you know I'll jump three feet out of my seat if I hear a loud noise, as where you know, I'll be sitting next to a group of guys who maybe haven't gone through what I've been through and no one else moves. Um, it's that hypersensitivity. But when it comes to something like sports and you're really nervous to go compete, you can gaslight yourself for a good cause, so to speak, into believing that I'm excited to compete because it is being processed and triggered in the same part of the brain. The signal is coming from the amygdala, and all you're doing is interpreting it differently. You're just responding to the signal differently. So healing is really a process of learning how to respond to yourself differently. We all kind of have these habits of self-criticism or numbing or avoidance, or um, some people have the habit of violence and projecting and taking it on other people. That is because they are reacting to an internal experience. And so it takes a lot of time. It's different for every person what like the thing is. Most people who come to me have tried a lot of traditional methods. Like, I'm not people's first rodeo, they've done therapy, they've gone to treatment, whatever. Um, and this kind of weird, more woo. Um, let's see what you need and like really understand your mind, um, and then go from there. Sure, that sometimes leads us back to traditional paths. I, you know, more and more frequently, I'm like, I think I need to have you go be evaluated for um autism, or I think we should see about getting you on some ADHD medication because this time blindness thing is actually gonna implode your life. Like right now it's working out for you because you've got an external structure in place, but once you're not in school or once you're not having your family scheduling stuff, um, it's gonna become a bigger disability. And that's not something that I can yoga out of you, you know. So it's understanding that like there is not a right and a wrong thing, there is not one thing, and like the thing that serves you this year might not help you at all next year. And so it's just remaining present and unattached and allowing yourself to learn and evolve for your entire time on planet Earth.

Jack Moran 58:33

Yeah, and it's hard because there are like some people have this like hard, uh a lot of people kind of have this like hard external shell or like this hard psychological shell, like almost call it like a labyrinth. And and they have created such like a model of the world, and like there are such deep-rooted like compartments to that psyche that like you can't just like directly like you can't speak to them directly. Like you almost have to go in through the side door because like they've created such a defense mechanism that like they're not able to receive information, and so like you you just like bringing them the answers, like they're not going to receive it.

SPEAKER_01 59:19

No, you're creating something to rebel against, you're creating something to reject. Right. It's totally disempowering to have someone tell you this is what you should do.

Jack Moran 59:28

Yeah. You're taking away that ability for them to make the choice for themselves.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

Absolutely. And and like I have I try really hard to not use the word should at all because you're you're shooting on yourself. That's shaming. Like, you know, like you could do that. It might benefit you to do that. That's more true. But like you don't have to do anything. You really don't. As an adult, it's your choice. Everything is your choice. Um, and that is overwhelming, frustrating, exhausting. That takes a lot of accountability, but that is the reality.

Jack Moran 1:00:00

Um do you believe that people are like exactly where they choose to be?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:05

Um, no, no, no, no. I think um that would be a huge disservice to many of us, you know. Like I would choose to live in a really comfortable home on my you know own and on a cliff, you know, by an ocean if if I could right now, but like that's not in the cards. And that's okay, you know, because there's other choices that are that are more important, and there's other choices that have happened leading up to this moment that make that not possible right now. And so there's a lot of, you know, I was just at the the Veterans Um Association uh community partnership event this morning, and people are not choosing to become homeless. Some definitely make that choice. Um, the guy who you know I I last did a podcast with in um Colorado, he's an amazing person, Austin Becker, Skier, amazing recovery story, and he'll he'll kind of say, like, I mean, I sort of made the choice to go to the streets because I wanted to keep using. So in that way, he's taking such accountability that a lot of people don't take. But there's also a lot of people who it's like, yeah, they they kind of one thing can just kind of happen, and we can be in neurological places where we are not in conscious control, right? Like the subconscious, the survival brain, the limbic system, which drives addiction and and really does kind of remove choice. Um, that's real. And so, like, I I like to say like addiction is not a choice, but recovery is. And and so when when families are like, well, he just keeps using, he keeps going back to the drug, I'm like, yeah, that makes sense neurologically, like, he's addicted. Like his brain, like this is this is real, it's not a choice. And so, like, first of all, we need to understand, does he want to be sober? Because if not, that's it. Period. That's a choice. That is his choice. So if he doesn't choose recovery, if he doesn't choose sobriety, if that's what recovery means for them, you have to honor that. Or you you're welcome to keep dumping money into this kid and be mad at him, but like that's your choice.

Jack Moran 1:02:16

And so that's kind of interesting what you said, because that like shifts my perspective a little bit. Because I would say I would previously have argued like you are exactly where you choose to be, because you, I mean, I can make the choice to like go to the as a homeless person, go to the library and educate myself and like get out of that situation, and like there's a path to get out of it, but I understand what you're saying that like some people aren't literally in like conscious control. Totally. Like they're like a their chemical like imbalance within their head is like making decisions for them, like not that yeah, I get what you're saying, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

Well, and too, like, I mean, Frank, I mean, I love being a woman now, but I I hated being a woman for a really long time. If I had a choice, I probably would have chosen to be able to pee wherever I wanted, you know, like that seems really helpful and nice, or to not have been subjected to the male gaze and and believe that my biggest worth as a human being comes from the shape of my body and if I'm deemed attractive and desired and and all of these things. So, you know, some people argue I don't I don't have enough information from beyond to know yes or no to this. Some people think that you choose the family you're born into, the time space, the body, whatever. I don't subscribe to that. Um, but I have chosen to accept. And acceptance is where I've found peace and power, and now I love who I am, and there's genuinely nothing that I would want to change. And that doesn't mean I'm a perfect human. It means that I don't, out of shame, wish I were anything different than who I am. I still am always working to, you know, have better emotion regulation, stay more calm when heated emotions come into a conversation and we have difference of opinions and you know, there's high stakes. We call that a crucial conversation. I am absolutely still building those crucial conversation skills, but like I'm no longer interested in in rejecting who I am to like, you know, back to the fitting in with the whole or or whatever. It's like I'm gonna resonate in my frequency. I I like the station I'm kind of tuned into, and I know I'll find other people who are tuned into that station, and it's just how long it takes.

Jack Moran 1:04:38

Well, that's freaking awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:41

Thanks.

Jack Moran 1:04:42

And it's been like um um, it's been very interesting to like kind of hear your perspective, and it's like almost like a not not a mirror, but um, I can see that you've like done a lot of work, and I feel like I've done a lot of work, but you're kind of in a different, obviously a different perspective, um, but like kind of going towards the same goal. Um, so it's been uh uh uh refreshing um um to hear your perspective on all of this. So I appreciate you coming on, and uh uh if people want to like reach out to you or interested in your services or anything like that, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:24

Yeah, so I'm on all the internet things. So um cosana coaching.com. Kosana is a made up word with roots in Latin and Spanish that means healing together. Speaks to my belief that we really cannot do this human thing alone. As independent as we try to be, um we are better together. So C-O-S-A-N-A coaching.com, Kosana Coaching on Instagram, probably the best way um to contact me. Please don't email me. I hate emailing. Um, but yeah, if you're struggling, like no shame, that's human. Um, I'd be happy to like walk through this human experience with you and help you get to a place that you're really stoked on.

Jack Moran 1:06:04

Hell yeah. Well, I appreciate you coming on.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:06

Thanks for having me.

Jack Moran 1:06:07

For sure.